[Suggestion]/[Discussion] PVP Balance Issues (particularly Parry)

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by Settemio, May 28, 2018.

  1. Settemio

    Settemio Kobold

    I really like this game and keep coming back to it, thanks to the devs for all the hard work that you do.

    There are a few issues with PVP that seem to be significantly unbalanced:

    Vanguard - This Bronze trait seems better than most Silver ones. I recommend raising it to Silver.

    Lateral Thinking - This Silver assist seems worse than many Bronze ones. Even on a human who has been deliberately built to take advantage of it, with all the Trip and Vulnerable and Nightlings I can possibly fit into a character, I still look at my trait and think "Wouldn't this still be better with Subtle Positioning instead?" Also, when comparing it to Shrug It Off, I think they are about equally useful overall. There are some situations where I prefer the card draw from Lateral Thinking but there are about as many situations where the ability to Shrug Off an enemy card, like a bunch of burns or an Entangling Roots, it more important, and the cantrip can also be useful in making sure to act first next turn. I recommend lowering Lateral Thinking to Bronze.

    Parry - This one is probably the biggest problem right now. It's a Bronze block, but of the cards that 'counter' it, the one that is most generally useful, Unnerving Strike, is not enough on its own to actually counter it. You need to position yourself behind the enemy, and that means investing more cards, making it a 2-for-1 trade in your opponents' favor. Maybe not a full 2-for-1, as positioning is an important part of strategy regardless of the existence of Parry, but even if we call it a "1.25-for-1 trade," it's still problematic that a Silver attack specifically designed to counter Parry has a 50/50 chance of actually succeeding unless you invest extra cards into it. My suggestion is either nerf it to a 4+ roll, or nerf it to a 3+ roll and raise it to Silver.

    I had some other thoughts but I worry I've already made my own post too long. I know I'm not even very good at this game, so my understanding of balance could be way off. Mostly I wanted to start a discussion, hopefully to get some input from better players. Are these cards unbalanced? Are my suggested fixes imbalanced? Are there other problems with balance in PVP that are bigger than Parry?
  2. Urgash

    Urgash Kobold

  3. MikuRu

    MikuRu Kobold

    If you want to complain, then Inspiration should have cantrip.
  4. Pawndawan

    Pawndawan Champion of Cardhuntria

  5. Gingrich Yurr

    Gingrich Yurr Thaumaturge

    Vanguard is probably too powerful for its quality, but Humans seriously needed a good tokenless double trait item to keep up with elves (Cautious Mobility) and dwarves (Raging Battler/Apprentice Ferocity). It may be overtuned but so are the rest of those traits.

    Lateral Thinking is bad, I have no qualms with the change.

    Parry may be too good for its quality, but there is counterplay like you said, hitting from behind which promotes better positional play and an emphasis on movement. If you really can't get behind an enemy, using a weak attack to proc it is fine, isn't it? I think lowering the success rate would make the card better because you usually lead off with your weakest attack and with a lower success rate it will be less likely to proc on your weak attack, leaving you in a difficult situation of whether to use your strong attack. At least in it's current state you can be quite sure a weak attack can draw it out. And at the end of the day, no matter how good it is against Melee, it's still a specific block that does nothing against Magic attacks.

    Also worth noting, that a change in quality of cards is unlikely, because it would change the number of power tokens an item needs in some cases.
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
  6. Settemio

    Settemio Kobold

    Thanks! That was informative, although many things in the game have changed since that thread.
    Well, if it didn't change token requirements, it wouldn't be much good for balancing PVP, haha.

    OK, some suggestions then for the same cards that do not involve quality shifts:
    Parry - no longer draw a card, but always succeeds (or maybe 1+ roll, so that Unnerving Strike and Feinting Strike still have a chance)
    nerf it to 4+ roll

    Lateral Thinking - "Choose the order of the other cards in your hand and discard all handicaps attached to you. Draw a card." (not sure how the UI would implement this and it's a relatively small buff, still probably wouldn't be a great Silver-quality card but at least it would improve its utility, especially around Wild Run/Controlled Overswing or in changing the order blocking cards are attempted)
    "Discard all handicaps and enemy-controlled cards attached to you. Draw a card." (is this what the old Purge did, minus the draw? Anyway, still a pretty small buff, but large enough to definitely be a solid Silver)
    "Discard all handicaps attached to you and attach this card to you. Draw a card. Duration 1. (while attached - Draw a card at the start of each turn)" (this is basically a draw 2 except that it doesn't go bonkers when you draw multiples of them in a turn, and it can be countered by Purge/Destructive Purge . . . I think it may be too strong a buff, putting it up there with the highest Silver-quality cards like Marty's Blessing)

    Vanguard - I actually don't know how to fix this at all other than raising it to Silver.
  7. Gingrich Yurr

    Gingrich Yurr Thaumaturge

    I have several ideas, though none that I really like:
    ● Make it require a dice roll to trigger
    ● Make it only Keep if roll 2/3+
    ● Make it move a random ally (not strictly a nerf)
    ● Make it Move 1 instead of Push 1 (not much difference in most situations)
    ● Make it not trigger on Step Attacks (probably the most elegant, but not that impactful)
  8. Scarponi

    Scarponi Moderator

    This would allow 2 characters with Vanguard to shuffle across the whole board! :D
  9. Gingrich Yurr

    Gingrich Yurr Thaumaturge

    Wow, really? I thought the card states "play a Move card", so it would only trigger if you actually played a move card, not just moved.
  10. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    I think you're right. You can test it with Team Run to be sure.

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