Parry: Something needs to change.

Parry, one of the best blocks and therefore used...well...a crapton in MP.

Parry works on a 2+ and has a 1/6 chance of failing. And when it fails, there's generally no winners. The failee whines about luck, the haxbot feels he would've won anyway. You know the gist.

Now I've kinda thought about it a bit and it's generally going to need a more complicated solution because of all the other abilities involved.

Currently, Feinting Strike (NEVER used) would hit through a parry 66,66% of the time. The 3+ assortment of blocks Defender's, Fumble and such block Feinting Strike 1/6th of the time. That isn't fun either.

I think Parry should either get straight nerfed down to 3+ and Feinting Strike given Hard to Block 4 (Always goes through every block except Pushback Parry/Bloodied Block below Full HP). This fixes Parry's ridiculous 2+ roll and makes it fail twice as much, therefore a fail is not a huge deal. And even with this change, Parry would still be too good for it's quality and Feinting Strike would actually be a decent card.
OR:
Make Parry/Pushback parry always work, keep Feinting Strike the same but make it always go through Parry/Pushback parry. Too complicated, but adding some sort of 100% counter to parry while fixing it's haxy nature while having this counter work normally against all the other blocks is imho the only way there is going to be true balance in the world of blocks. Virtually all other blocks have buggered quality compared to their power, Shield Block/Absorbing Block being the biggest losers.

Generally, Parry is just too good for it's quality and adds an unfun luck dynamic to warriors beating the crap out of each other. Top quality blocks like Shield Block are inferior to parry and much harder to get. The "It's not a dead card vs Wizards" excuse is generally unfounded. Most higher rated teams have some form of melee in the deck, and parry being dead vs the Wizard is generally preferable to getting your Shield Block wasted on a TK in the 99% of cases there's also a warrior running around with 11+ damage attacks. The only block that even compares is Defender's Block, as well as blocks that don't straight compete with Parry such as Cause Fumble and Duck.

By the way, I have not lost a single MP match due to Parry hax. It has failed (multiple times in a row too, lol) but never in critical moments. I've possibly won a few due to it and I would have preferred it if the Parries just worked. I did lose a single "No deaths" adventure with 4 Parries in hand and a single zombie going through all 4 of them. I wasn't that pissed since it was the first mission, but I was kind of like "How the **** did that happen?".

There's also Unnerving Strike, but I do think that there's (especially in the current "Blocking Mace Meta") a place for it by attacking from the back. It's junk compared to War Cry, but a simple damage boost might be enough and War Cry tops out at like 3 cards in the deck for a Dwarf.

I'm wondering what others think of this, I'm kind of like...something needs to change and on the other hand, it's not a huge deal. I mean we can all just keep abusing the hell out of Parry and not use any other blocks except a few Fumbles and Defender's on the Buff bot Cleric and the obligatory Ducking Dwarf. I just like to think there's a right way, and the right way should be "Oh my god a gold quality block card" instead of..."Meh...it's no Parry or Defender's".

TL;DR :
Waaah Waaaah Parry too good!

 

I will not disagree that parry is a nice card, but...

It's powerful because this map rotation has led to a melee meta, a couple months ago the maps were dominated by burst wizards and parry got very little play. My shield varies from month to month based on what is being run most on the maps. Likewise the high rated players that tend to have "some form of melee in the deck," don't often run the same build from month to month, so while your argument holds in the moment, the fact that parry is worthless against wizards does matter in the broad scheme of things. There's another thread that's popped up this month about how "overpowered" telekinesis is, there's no way anyone would have been talking about that the previous couple months. Some cards just saturate the meta in certain months because they're good, but very targeted - parry is one of those. Some players actually spend most of their time taking advantage through counter builds - everyone's bringing tons of parries? Run all wizards and now your opponent is drawing tons of dead cards.

Tl;dr: Watch the meta over a few months time before making any hard judgment.

 

The problem is that Wizzards are too weak righ now and there are not many spells worth blocking.
Give Wizzards more power and we would see different blocks.

It could be interesting to see a shift from Parry to Catch Arrow.
Please...I would like to put those Fabrian's Shields in some action...

 

Easily obtainable blocks, which are very useful, but only against melee attacks, make positioning & proper movement even more important, which is great in my opinion.
I believe that decreasing Parry's success rate would lead to more randomness, and therefore less fun gameplay. In fact, adding another blocks triggering at +2, especially anti-magic ones, would be good idea.

I believe that instead of nerfing parry, we should buff specifically anti-magic blocks instead. Currently cards like Catch Arrow or Missile Block are terrible, especially when many wizards runs either electrical (hard to block) attacks or use Spark Inductor/Generator.
I think that small buff for Absorbing Block might be also a good idea (maybe adding "if this card blocks melee, Heal 2" or similar property).

 

Wizards are not too weak. The spells worth blocking are all Hard to Block. Except maybe the frost spells, but those are rare now and I'd prefer to deal with the encumber and block an 11 damage attack. Those sparks are what you want to block since those can do some pretty hefty damage, but you will only block those on a 5 or 6. TK is hard to block 2 with a trait.

There's no reason to load up on blocks that block spells because in general, it's not going to work. And it gives the opponent an easy way to get rid of your blocks with twin heals and weak spells.

http://wiki.cardhuntria.com/wiki/Items/Parrying_Buckler
OR:
http://wiki.cardhuntria.com/wiki/Items/Bloody_Shield

That's how messed up the blocks are. No good shield with Shield Block exists, even the Dwarves avoid the racials with it because it's so crap compared to it's quality. Most blocks are.
Let's compare Parry to it's magical cousin:
http://wiki.cardhuntria.com/wiki/Cards/Catch_Arrow

In all reasonableness, the best it's going to block is a fireball. 50% of the time. Parry blocks 83% of the time! Even a specific attack meant to counter it is going to get screwed 33% of the time, Unnerving Strike even has a 50% chance to fail. That's messed up. Catch arrow can't do squat to a trait boosted TK/Arcane Burst or a Spark. Same effect on block, same quality. Catch arrow is almost as worthless vs a TK/Spark Wizard as Parry is.

Right now alot of people are running 2 war/1 wiz. That's like the perfect environment to run a card like Shield Block. It's really good vs melee, but still effective vs a Wizard. NOBODY uses it. It's all Parry, despite a good number of Wizards running around. Sure, Parry is useless vs 3 Wizards. But this is assuming the game balance is so messed up that a party consisting of 3 Wizards is a viable team. Even then, you won't be loading up on Catch Arrow unless there is ALOT of Fireballs flying around. Due to how the game works, Wizards will always be more likely to stall and control then to blow everything to smithereens and as such Catch Arrow is just not a great card to have. There's a cute epic shield in case you can't spare any tokens and have alot of trouble with Wizards, but it's not something you are going to pick considering other options.

Compared to normal fantasy setting rules, this game is hilariously inverted. Armor is the thing to have vs Wizards while blocks are useless, even specific anti magic blocks. Normally it's the exact opposite. Buffing Catch Arrow and other blocks is going to turn Wizards from "ok" to "totally and utterly useless" so that's not an option. The way it works in this game has it's own little charm and complexity, but Parry really is too good for it's quality. And it's too easy to get haxed by it, losing a match due to a fluke from a card that shouldn't work that way to begin with just sucks and is not fun. I try to hit you, 2 parries fail. You try to hit me, parry blocks. I try to hit you, 2 parries fail. You try to hit me, parry blocks. At that point I do not want to be in physical proximity to you, even though it is not even my fault! It's Parry's fault and the way the game works.

Edit:

It's not these cards specifically that are bad. As I said, Shield Block is a very specific anti melee block, but due to it's quality it's only found in combination with crap cards. It doesn't compare to Parry. Even if Parry becomes 3+ as I suggested, Shield Block still won't compare. In fact, Parry at 3+ means it's still the best due to the "cheapness" of the card from it's average quality. Upping the power of current existing or adding more powerful Magic Blocks would just ruin the game for Wizards. Then you would have to up the damage of Wizards, then there would be one shotting from behind, etc etc. That part of the game should be left alone.

 

Watch the meta as the maps change. I guarantee that there is always a shift as people adapt to the new maps. It simply is that parry and telekinesis do exceptionally well in the current maps. Before this month nobody was complaining about parry or tk, but there sure were people complaining about burft.

Wait a few days and see if people use it next month. (Assuming the maps are more wizard-friendly).

 

Don't even get me started about BURFT!

But as for parry, well its fine.

2 things though.

Thematically it makes sense that it is harder to block projectiles and magic.

What are the "normal fantasy setting rules"?

Spoiler: fantasy

Specifically I think we are living in @Jon 's fantasy, where he makes the rules, which are a refreshing break from the "normal" copied and over quantified archetypes. IMO

 

Parry is too good for it's current quality, this has been known since... pretty much forever, right?

 

Well not alot of people seem to agree with that.

 

While I agree with the sentiment of Parry being slightly OP (on pretty much any map rotation), I don't see why you brought Feinting Strike (I've seen it used occasionally) into it. Also

is a strange argument. Either you have the dice rolls in the game or not, and you will always eventually come across an odd fluke or two. The one you gave was a (1/6)^4*(1/3)^2 or (1/6)^4*(1/3), assuming no shenanigans, (1/11664 and 1/5832 respectively) which is pretty rare. It's something inherent to a game with dice.

Changing the blocks could be pretty upsetting as regards balance, though parry to 3+ probably wouldn't be too much of a change. A lot of blocks don't see much use in MP, especially range blocks, but I think that speaks more about the number of melee play towards range play as a rule.

 

I personally agree that Parry is incredibly overpowered for a bronze card. Everyone seems to be focusing on its success rate, but seemingly neglecting the fact that it also causes you to draw a card after blocking that 11 damage attack. The only other blocks that reliably work and draw a card are gold quality (Lifesaving Block notwithstanding). Honestly, nerfing it to 3+ is the least that could be done to 'balance' it; at least then Unnerving Strike could be considered a semi-reliable counter.

EDIT: It's probably also worth noting that Parry and Pushback Parry are the only blocks with a success-rate that high (Lifesaving Block notwithstanding again).

 

Note: I say this as a long-time player, and not the defender of a BM decision (Parry's quality hasn't been discussed in my time on the team.) I also say this with only multiplayer Card Hunter in mind, because, as a player, I still hold that singleplayer balance basically doesn't matter (the campaign can be handily completed with 0 'good' cards). Without further ado ...

Parry is the most undervalued card in the game.

It's a bit silly in a vacuum, yes.

But as an extreme outlier it has played a key role in shaping the way in which we play the game.

Changing it in any way would have a profound effect on the game. Even a minor tweak. It is the staple of staples. It defines how strong melee attacks need to be. It is what gives step attacks a lot of their value. It's the progenitor of Unnerving Strike and Feinting Strike. None of these cards would be the cards they are if Parry were different. One might say Parry is format-warping—or that it's format-defining. Its value fluctuates on different boards, obviously, but it always has the same function in the deckbuilder, across all characters for all players: melee attacks from the front are high-risk, high-reward.

Why are melee blocks better than magic blocks? (And they are, across the board.) Because blocking melee attacks is better than blocking magic attacks.

Should non-Parry blocks be buffed to be more playable? Maybe! That would increase the number of options available for top-tier play a bit, at least until optimal configurations are discovered for a given set of boards.

Should Parry be nerfed?

Man, Parry probably shouldn't have a die roll at all. The worst thing about the card is the 'feel bad' experience when it fails.

 

an ancient force rumbles in the deep beneath CardHuntria, awakening from its slumber... what noise is this, it wonders, that should interrupt my pleasant dreams? ah, it is that familiar sound of peasants groaning beneath the oppression of unfair cards...

tl;dr - get off my lawn, I've been ragequitting against nimbus since before it existed... <3

Also also, Parry is featured on the exquisite cat-themed Black Cat Buckler, and should therefore be even moar powerful.

 

If you go that route, not remove the dice roll from Parry but make it work on 1+ (So that Feinting Strike/Bad luck etc still affect it). But all other blocks that are already inferior to Parry need to be buffed as well. The problem is Parry, not the other blocks. Feinting Strike is crap, that's why it needs to be changed. Going for it means sacrificing alot of damage and even if you try to hit someone with Parry, it still fails 1/3 of the time. You need Bad Luck to really mess it up, but in that case Unnerving Strike is much better considering that is also way easier to get.

Neither of these cards are particularly good, though. A much better solution would be just to nerf Parry down to 3+ or even 4+ and introduce new cards. Or even change the hilariously broken Shield Block into a new form of Parry (Only works vs Melee, works on 1+, draw card when blocking). Making that one too good in general would only screw with Wizards. The problem isn't that Parry makes Warriors underpowered, it's just that it's so easy to get and so undervalued that all other blocks have no place. Nerfing it would give room to other cards which are much higher valued but currently unusable. 4+ would make it in line with Catch Arrow, and existing cards gold quality blocks could always be changed to replace it and make a better version (Such as the 1+ version).

 

There is nothing wrong with Feinting Strike itself. If you gave me the choice between Feinting Strike and a Powerful Bludgeon on a weapon I could easily see forgoing 2 damage for the addition of Hard to Block. Damage is buffable by a number of means but warriors have no way of augmenting the success rate of attacks aside from running War Cry. In fact, a "Feinting" Bejeweled Shortsword would be incredibly powerful given the popularity of Parry. Does it suck that Parry is still going to block it a good amount of the time? Absolutely, but the high success rate on Parry actually makes it easier to play around if a little more frustrating. Right now, you can be fairly certain that the weak attack you lead off with will be blocked. Making it even 3+ brings it on par with Defender's Block. A big part of what makes Defender's Block so frustrating to play against is that you can't be sure to remove it with the attack of your choice.

I think the state of blocks is reasonable as of right now. Parry is hilariously undervalued but it is also kept in check by wizards and easily accessible so everyone is on the same playing field. Making Parry worse or other blocks better would only serve to create a new top dog, most likely one that isn't best found on an uncommon item. Either that or people stop spending tokens on shields. That means either Pushback Parry becomes the norm or blocks become an afterthought like armor.

 

The Single-Player Perspective:
(feel free to skip to italicized part below for a much quicker read)


Parry is well balanced for PvE [by its quality tier and effect].
Since I play static-build parties (slowly tweaking equipped items over time, rather that adjusting entire builds per map), I tend to prefer silver block cards, which are more versatile. Parry cards are best on melee-dominant characters, to cut token cost, or to flesh out a defensive build.
The main issue I've seen with block cards is that certain silver and gold block cards are underwhelming to their quality level, making other cards of their quality, as well as lower quality cards seem more potent.

As Flaxative said, I actually DO base a lot of my builds around static cards like parry. Which isn't to say that I use parry very often, but that it's a firm reference point to what I can expect out of card values when I'm making a build. For someone with an addled mind such as mine, that's quite the convenience.



As far as pvp goes, from my little time there, and what I've 'overheard', it seems, yes, as noted, a rotation issue.
When large maps come up, I hear people gripe about triple wizards. When small maps come up, I hear people gripe about triple melee/bejeweled/vampire/etc.

From the mouths of the people it actually affects, I get the steady impression it's less about inherent card imbalances and more that A: it's more expensive to use more versatile block cards, leading to parry/missile block emphasis and B: the game is more melee dominant so people hesitate to use missile blocks since even on large maps they can't guarantee facing 3x wizards.

Is that about right?

Well, that's not my thing, so I'll leave you to it;
But continuing off what Flaxy brought up, Parry is really the base consideration defense is based around, if there are imbalances in combat, it seems more an issue with how other cards are balanced.



But, lets take a closer look at some key block cards of various quality tiers:

*Subtle Parry is a fantastic paper quality card, matching to its tier just like Parry matches to the tier one above it.

*Of course, Parry both increases die roll by 1 AND guarantees on-melee draw:
Cause Fumble, by comparison, is a silver quality card- it gives ranged (melee) block, which is a reasonable silver tier upgrade to guaranteed on-melee draw, but goes back to 3+ roll.

*Defender's Block at gold, is a block ANY at ranged, AND draw card, at 3+.


Looking at just those four cards, the card that seems unbalanced by the pattern of scaling, is Fumble, which seems underpowered to its tier, not getting the same pattern of improved scaling Parry and Defender's Block get.

Whether the issue is Subtle Parry/Parry/Defender'sBlock/etc being too good; or a lot of other blocks being too bad; it's not a simple issue of a single card being out of balance, but the balance in a sense being split into two factions of cards, with there being some definitive forerunners when you're building decks.



However, the real balance issue ends up having nothing to do with the cards themselves, or their associated qualities.
Rather, it has to do with their rarity assignment:

Defender's Block is Rare, understandably.
Cause Fumble is uncommon, and Parry is common.
Subtle Parry is.. rare. Again, matching the comparisons I made above, by being equal to Defender's Block.

So therein lies the problem. All the other cards I mentinoned match the rarity associations you'd expect from them, except one:
By Parry's current quality and power, and just matching it to similar cards, it should also be a rare to its tier.
Instead, it's inexplicably a common.



So, in summation?

Yes, Parry is currently unbalanced [having traits more in line with a rare bronze or an uncommon silver than a common bronze].

No, it's not a simple matter of adjusting the card's traits to fix the matter.




[Sorry for being extra un-lucid, it's one of those moments for me. Translators/editors welcome.]

 

More accurately it is a paper+(1)(D+)

Cause Fumble is rare. Rarity is not based on the how powerful the card is but rather the complexity of it and is quite arbitrary.

 

Irrelevant to the point

Woops! Only further emphasizing the point, though.

You've quite missed the point :'(

The point being, if Parry has power comparable to a rare card [regardless of how rarity is assigned], but is common, its subsequent prevalence (due to being common rarity) combined with how inadequately silver (rare silver cards, at that) compare, is what causes the impression of gross imbalance that people are having.

As I said from the start (albeit perhaps unclearly), the main issue is how erratic power and utility of cards [primarily, block and trait cards] is.

Regardless of how well suited parry is to its role, if rarer, more expensive block cards have less benefit and utility, then you're going to see far more parry cards in [pvp] play.

That will emphasize them, both by highlighting any quirks the card may have, and by leaving a much stronger impression in people's minds, than cards they see less often.

The imbalance will also ensure that the token-capped world of pvp will continue to emphasize the cheaper, common parry cards over certain higher tier cards, which, in addition to how it affects balance and impressions, also means certain defensive styles will see less use, further emphasizing how people perceive the dominance of parry in pvp.

Ah, I may be being unclear again.

Point is, parry itself is a reasonable card [as I noted in my pve section], but the entire system it's a part of has some quirks that quite need to be addressed-
If not to address player concerns and enhance viable build versatility, then to enhance how people perceive other block cards, thus leading to a more robust [seeming] system.

 

I was countering some of your arguments. And here are some more arguments countered by it.

Here you mention rarity affecting rating
If you were curious to what it said ignoring mentions of rarity: having traits more in line with a bronze or an silver than a bronze.

Let me remind you that rarity is irrelevant to the balance.
If you were curious to what it said ignoring mentions of rarity: The point being, if parry has power comparable to a card, but is, its subsequent prevalence combined with how inadequately compare, is what causes the impression of gross imbalance that people are having.

@DunDunDun I assume you are conceding by the lack of a reply.

 

I think Defender's Block is the real problem. Turn the volume down on the Aegis a little bit, and it might be possible to use war cry, unnerving, and positioning. As long as the Aegis exists in its current form, such a strategy is a fool's errand, which in turn makes parry better.

Well, another part of the reason is that war cry is so hard to get. It's only on one tokenless item, and that item happens to have the abysmal spiked mail... a card rated "good", 4/7, when it is actually worse than "weak", 2/7 armors... and arguably should be rated "bad", 1/7.