[List] Universally Inferior Items with the same Token Cost [EttSC Updated]

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by progammer, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. BaldwinP

    BaldwinP Kobold

    Which goes to the general problem with endgame itemization: when you're playing the campaign, it's OK to get that inferior level 9 item when you're getting level 9 drops and then replace it with the better card when you're a higher level and get the higher level drops. In multiplayer, the inferior item is simply inferior.

    More to the point, to maximise card strength in general you will be looking for tokenless items as close as possible to level 8, blue token items as close as possible to level 14 (or 17 for one token items), blue/orange weapons at level 17 and orange at (for now) 18. Or at least this would be the case if cards were valued 100% correctly and if there was infinite itemization- since that's not true, much as you might like a level 17 version of some level 9 or level 12 cards, sometimes the card that fits best in your deck isn't the one with the cards which are strongest in a vacuum.
  2. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    Took a while after AoTA is released before I was able to get back to this. Regardless, let's see how many useless items AotA brings to the table, as well as how many previous items are now rendered useless by AoTA. Finally, we will conclude whether "power creep" actually happened in AoTA or not.

    Firstly, small addition to the ruleset (that determines whether a card is universally superior to another):
    Test Build 2.12

    With the ruleset determined, we have added 17 pairs of superior cards involving AoTA cards:
    Superior >> Inferior   Notes
    Healing Dash >> Dash   Always good
    Brutal Charge >> Charge   Unblockable, Dmg always good
    Healing Benediction >>  Healing Presence   Optionally more target, better AOE
    Triple Heals >> Twin Heals   Optionally more target
    Triple Heals >> Minor Heal   Optionally more target
    Pushback Parry >> Weak Parry   Bridge + Move is optional
    Bloodied Block >> Wounded Block   Better dice
    Barbed Platemail >> Crafted Mail   Dmg is beneficial
    Dissolve Armor >> Melt Armor   More Range
    Illusory Barrier >> Wall of Illusion   More duration, only affect enemy
    Arcing Spark >> Jumpspark   More target
    Controlled Overswing >> Violent Overswing   Optional more choice
    Punishing Strike >> Simple Strike   Dmg is beneficial, does not factor desperate block
    Unnerving Strike >> Startling Strike
    Pressing Bash >> Able Bash   Move is optional
    Feinting Strike >> Skillful Strike
    Sundering Strike >> Shredding Strike
    With the set of superior cards, we have generated 10 pairs of superior items involving 400+ new AoTA items:

    Phantom Pain >> Pin Of The Painful Mirage

    Skipping Boots >> Hidebound Boots
    Tochtli Boots >> Boots Of Aggression

    Healer's Jerkin >> Holy Nimbus

    Yochxti's Sacred Bundle >> Ring Of Bifurcated Healing

    Hooked Chimalli >> Lightweight Buckler
    Twisting Shield >> Granwick's Shield
    Hexagon Shield >> Granwick's Shield
    Twisting Shield >> Hexagon Shield

    Bloodshield Of Xoc >> Kelvim's Buckler

    That totals up to 9 inferior items, out of 413 new items introduced.

    There is really not many new items introduced to the list, suggesting the same pattern as before: items are intentionally designed to be uniquely different from each other. No items should be strictly inferior to another. Very rarely that an item can make this list.

    Regarding power creep: There isn't any evidence that AoTA introduced a clear power creep. New items may be perceived to be better than old items, but the most of them are not strictly better, following the same designed mentioned above. (Well, maybe except the OP Twisting Shield :p)

    Feel free to discuss new AoTA items and any other inferior/vendor trash items here.
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  3. Phaselock

    Phaselock Bugblatter

    Barbed Platemail >> Crafted Mail   Dmg is beneficial
    Why not compare against spiked mail ?

    Dissolve Armor >> Melt Armor  More Range
    Afaik, different mechanics. Melt removes armor before dealing damage.
  4. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    Seems like i'm missing some pair of amours, will be added.

    Isn't Dissolve essentially doing the same thing ?

    "Target discards their oldest Armor card (before that Armor can prevent damage)." The immediately part seems like a better way to describe dissolve armor.
  5. Lord Feleran

    Lord Feleran Guild Leader

    Nope, dissolve armor removes before damage, too.
  6. Phaselock

    Phaselock Bugblatter

    Oh, right... Melt bypasses blocks, dissolve does not.

    progammer likes this.
  7. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    New Update:

    Removed card relation:
    • Dissolve Armor > Melt Armor
    Added card relation:
    • Barbed Platemail > Spiked Mail
    • Wounded Block > Unreliable Block
    Resulting in 3 additional pairs of superior/inferior items (non-AoTA, all related to reliable block)

    Ricochet Buckler >> Striped Shield
    Snitrick's Shield >> Big Ash Shield

    Ichabod's Buckler >> Cherry Shield

    Search is now extended to compare item with higher token costs, as long as the superior item have lower cost. (For example, a minor token item that is universally superior than a major token item was previously ignored). This results in 0 additional pairs.
  8. Finial

    Finial Orc Soldier

  9. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    This was discussed before in this thread. Both card create different attachement that deal dmg both to the attached character. This difference is amplified by the Ignite burn card. Therefore these 2 card will not be compared.
  10. Finial

    Finial Orc Soldier

    Apologies for bringing up an already-covered subject then. :)
  11. doog37

    doog37 Hydra

    (majortoken) This is Yellow (or Gold) AKA Major power token
    (greattoken)This is orange and is not in the game currently AKA Great Power token

    Sorry to be a prick but come on, you can see the difference between yellow and orange.

    :) This is a smiley face and has nothing to do with anything...
    progammer likes this.
  12. doog37

    doog37 Hydra

    Quellic's Boots >> Kerrick's Steel Boots

    There is no way that a Kerrick's is superior to a Quellic's but if you dont have 3 copies of Quellics, Kerricks are mighty fine boots especially for a wiz.
  13. Alcibiade_2nd

    Alcibiade_2nd Kobold

    Good job programmer!
  14. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    Speaking of which, at least one person is still talking about "silver" tokens, more than a year after they were changed to blue.
  15. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    Welcome back, everyone, I can't believe it's already a year.

    Change log: 2 major balance patches + EttSC

    Ruleset changes:
    Desperate Block dmg point moved from 5 to 6
    Laxed rules regarding card draw. Now a card draw is universally better. You don't build a deck gimping yourself with bad traits, even then, card draw is still worth it. (Only 1 inferior items caused by this).

    The most recent balance patches have caused the removal of many pair of superior card relation. (For example cards that do more but have shorter range which wont be superior to one another).
    Similarly, the EttSC expansion brought many new cards that works differently from one another (very few of them is superior than one another). Furthermore, most EttSC items costs 1-2 major token (which is quite expensive) and doesn't compete with the majority of the item base. Conclusion: No power creep here (Hooray!!)

    Overall, this is a good direction of balance that turns cards to be different than each other and therefore less inferior cards/items. The EttSC expansion brought 0 additional inferior items to the game (Another Hooray!!)

    While 2 major balance patches removed and added many new pairs of superior card relations. The total number of inferior items remains unchanged. A few notable one were no longer inferior (Luke's Iron hand and Hawlic's Surging Shield), but a few more underused inferior items settled in. So the total is still: 58 superior-inferior pairs, 51 inferior items (excluding default slots) (Slightly small frown :()

    Trivia: There are now no more inferior items costing a major token. 51 out of 1559 items is only 3.27% worthless.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
  16. HD23

    HD23 Orc Soldier

    I disagree with this relationship:

    Flanking Move, Walk,,Cantrip is optional (Pass),

    Cantrip+Pass is not the same as no Cantrip, as in the first case, your opponent has the option to End Round, while in the second there is not that option. There are times that I want to waste a card in order to have it be my opponent's turn without giving him the End Round option.
    ParodyKnaveBob and doog37 like this.
  17. Vlamona

    Vlamona Thaumaturge

  18. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    Damage goes beyond the Desperate Block value of 6, not comparable as stated in the rule.
    Ok I agree with your points. It is much better for Volcano build to move, costs the turn, and force opponent to respond. I'll revise these cantrips.
    Melancthon likes this.
  19. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
    ParodyKnaveBob and HD23 like this.
  20. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader Staff Member

    But Minor Heal has greater range... does that matter? :)
    ParodyKnaveBob likes this.

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