(I also considered naming this thread, "Elf Wizards Are Hard Mode.") I know I can write at length. (Sorry, heheh.) Believe it or not, I've revised several times to shorten this, but I've been mulling over a lot of things on this topic for a long time, and I really want to make several particular points. The Official Backdrop Gary drops us into battle against Greenfang and his minions with Melvin's Uberpowerful characters -- a hinted goal for us to aim for. (I mean, ha ha, c'mon, read the flavor text for Ember Burst and Fireball! lol -- and if you don't recall, we can throw a Fireball round 1, turn 1, in that first staged clash.) Our party? A "stereotypical" dwarf warrior, human priest, and elf wizard. Dwarves are tough. Elves are magical. That's what all the fantasy fiction says anyway, right? After we form our party how we like, and after a few "real" adventures, learning the ropes, Gary invites us to Multiplayer -- even giving us a starter party full of level 18 gear! Who are they? Whatever race/class combos you picked for Campaign, the free, default MP Starter Party is the "stereotypical" dwarf warrior, human priest, and elf wizard. This game cries out for you to play dwarf warrior, human priest, and elf wizard. It tells newcomers, this is your simplest get-it-started set up. It's the default. It's normal. Deviation can be interesting and fun, surely, but it'll take a different kind of play mindset than the original, simplest party -- for Campaign and Multiplayer. Please play dwarf warrior, human priest, and elf wizard. The Community Backdrop "Don't play elf wizards." That was everyone's advice. Soon, I reluctantly changed my ranked party to my campaign characters. Surely enough, my dwarf wizard fared better. "Don't play elf wizards" became my advice, too. $:^ [ Spoiler: Read the grueling half-year tale if you like... I eventually ventured into the venue of the venerable forums ($;^ b) and there learned about the Cult of the Bejeweled. Wow. What a hack. (Pardon the pun.) Drawing Move cards for Attack purposes. I wonder... I often pull for underdogs. $:^ ] The community had shown the clear picture that the elf wizard was the underdog. (That second sentence is the most relevant part here.) Also, I figured, BM clearly has a good head for design. Surely, the elf wizard is here for a reason. What are we missing? ...I wondered if I could pull a sneaky and reliably draw Attacks with an elf wizard... Yep! In my 1000-1100s Elo, I could pull Step Arcanes all day on my fellow newbie players with low-level gear. But then, I'd face opponents with 11-damage attacks -- before stacked Frenzies. How can they do so much damage so quickly? $:^ ` At some point in World Chat, this got discussed. Long story short, someone challenged me to a casual duel, and to super make his/her point, brought triple dwarf wizards. I had human priest, elf wizard, dwarf wizard. I won. At this point, I don't recall if the elf stayed alive; I think she did; I know she did not go down first, and she totally played her part to win. (Btw, her name? Myx'd Mess'zh. I liked the underdog idea. $;^ J heheh) Over time, I found other interesting uses for an elf wizard. I was usually safer with other party make-ups, but when I found a good use for her, I brought her in, and I rocked the house. Listen, seriously. I have a point here. I rose through the ranks with her supporting my warriors in the Gladatorial and Halloween maps. During the height of burfft's heyday, I created an anti-burfft party that consistently won leagues; they were always elves, and went through a few iterations, but the last version was 1/1/1. Yeah, 1/1/1 elves beating pre-nerf burfft. Near the end of this run, in came the AI maps that people were foaming at the mouth over. I wasn't high enough Elo to frequently see burfft in ranked, (as opposed to it being all over the place in league,) thus I created a party to beat nearly anything in ranked except burfft. This included the .. famous, it feels like .. double Electro-Laser elf who was destroying 1600ers and 1700ers. I said I had a point. With these kinds of upturned victories happening (to the point that random people started also bringing in my anti-burfft league concept), not to mention bigger names than mine publicly trying my posted Electro-Lasers and winning... I've come to the point now where I have no problem saying, my crazy efforts had an impact -- along with, certainly, a couple others I started hearing who were playing elf wizards at high levels, much higher than mine. People started seeing games where elf wizards weren't the first characters to go down -- and often were the last if they died at all. People started taking the elf wizard seriously. You know what the community's version of taking the elf wizard seriously was? And still is? No longer was/is it said, "Don't play elf wizards." Victory? Well... It became, "you have to play elf wizards differently" -- and even, "elf wizards are harder to play." The community still saw -- and sees -- the elf wiz as hard mode. ... Frankly, when my opponents would bring an elf wiz, that char was often my first kill -- and ironically, it was often by my elf wiz's hand. (Myx'd Mess'zh indeed. $;^ J heheh) There's good reason they have the reputation as squishy first-targets -- and the ironic reputation, as @CT5 has said in multiple videos I believe, of "the elf wizard trap" (where a differently experienced player uses the character's squishiness to bait the opponent, then escape, then destroy). I unfortunately agree this is hard mode in the sense that I'm still afraid to play even double elf wizard, let alone triple. $:^ [ It's pretty different when playing against someone who knows how to play as them. Sniffy has a reputation for a reason. They're slippery! However, if a skilled elf wiz player manages to lose a fey magician, especially as a first kill -- hey, we all have plans fall apart at times -- then opponent confirmation-bias has been known to kick in, sometimes even with degrading remarks. In short, there's a vicious cycle, generally speaking, of people not knowing how to play as them, leading to people being well able to play against them, leading to people not playing as them -- and if people don't play as them, then people won't know how, and around it spins. The Misunderstanding and The Plight A few weeks ago, before I even started The Misadventures of Myx'd Mess'zh serial campaign thread, someone asked me why I "force" elf wizards. I wish I could remember the exact question, but the verb "force" I remember perfectly. As if this is some "hard mode" thing that I'm just bent on getting some usage out of. The game tells you this is the default -- what we should expect to play. ... Something has gone wrong. That player's misunderstanding... I'm not bent on "forcing" elf wizards. I simply believe every race/class combination likely was originally intended to be equally viable -- and at this point, I seriously believe every combination should be equally viable, each having its own strengths/weaknesses that are on par with the other race/class combinations. World Chat write words that they're not. Forum posts showing viable decks speak through actions that they're not. Party make-ups seen day in and day out likewise demonstrate: the race/class combinations are not on par with each other. I've heard others say this: It takes less (time / effort / item-resources) to make a dwarf mobile than it does to make an elf durable. That .. probably .. sums up everything, right there. Nowadays, a dwarf warrior doesn't even need Sparkling Cloth or Vibrant Pain; add a Vanguard human to a dwarven Howler with Vengeance, not to mention a wizard for some extra control if you like, and your stubby dwarf can dance around with the best of 'em. So many options, they can almost be an afterthought. An elf warrior can equip a few major armors before leaving the Keep, then Howl some in battle hoping for more, which is nice that they're getting that little boost (especially after losing their overpowered Maneuvers). You have to think long and hard, however, about how to build an elf wizard to stay alive in a match. Wanna know my secret? Wanna know how I do it? It's pretty sad. I often think first of how the poor creature will survive, (Moves, Armors, Terrains, Heals, whatever,) and then build her deck around that. $:^ | Something has gone wrong. (continued next post)
The Goal? I want to see each race/class combo as viable as the next. My preference, I believe, would have the game see more variety in party make ups and overall tactics. I believe (so far) that Blue Manchu's original goal was the same. I'm inclined to believe they still want this to be the case, even if they're not sure how to go about it in a balanced fashion. (I hear that Elven Maneuvers was needed when it was introduced -- but became overpowered past its original intention. Unfortunately, its warrior offensive nerf badly hurt its wizard defensive counterpart.) How to do this? I don't know. I've designed and published a game or two, and I've designed and programmed commercially, but I haven't ever released a commercial game. I'm far from the likes of one Mr. Jon. $;^ J Some of the below sentiment might help, though. (This post originally looked entirely different -- and was much shorter overall -- because it started as just a "Card Ideas" post. Of what I actually posted over there, I'll now quote the relevant stuff.) I wrote more afterward but figured I'd move here. I wound up rewriting almost everything from scratch to really flesh things out, hence the gigantic first post, but here are some nuggets that didn't make it into my main structure above: I'm tired. I hope this multipart essay stayed focused well enough. Thank you, reader, very much, if you hung in there and read all that. I appreciate your time. Regards, Bob
I can empathize with the woes of the Elf Wizard, my first party was a Human Warrior, Dwarf Priest and Elf Wizard, so it wasn't quite the typical build but still had the Elf Wizard in it. I even bought the undead Elf Wizard figure with the pizza Gary gives you, but then once I beat the campaign I quickly realized I just had no idea how to play an Elf Wizard in MP so it mostly gathers dust in Cuthbert's Costumes. That was about 2~3 years ago and I've never even tried playing an Elf Wizard in MP since then barring shortly on the test server, if others keep saying how difficult it is then I doubt I stand a chance at all. As you said the Elf Wizard is just naturally fragile, they can't rely on a Dwarf Skill for Toughness or Parry, nor Human Skills with their own set of blocks while the temptation is strong to use the Elf Skill slot for cycling rather than extra movement, even with the discount they get on certain move cards. I just can't imagine how one would keep an Elf Wizard alive, you already mentioned the prevalence of hypermobile melee characters and then there's also the danger from other Wizards who can on a good day demolish an Elf Wizard in 3 or even 2 ranged attacks. How do you do it? I also think it's rather telling that getting an Elf Wizard in QD is seen as a handicap by people, the temptation is there to just resign straight away if you get two or even three of them. When full control over your deck configuration is taken away the downsides of an Elf Wizard become all the clearer. I do like the idea of Heightened Senses, making those dodgy move cards more reliable might incentivize their use, and there is some cool synergy with hybrid Armor/Move cards like Dynamic Armor as well. I do think that for a +1 roll the silver quality's on the high side though, let alone at gold quality (compare to Ready To Strike for example), having it be a Free Card would make running it less cumbersome since you don't want to throw away a Dodge or Jump Back to keep it in your hand.
Spoiler: Maniafig Huh. Didn't know that. Sorry to hear. ~nod~ Is that a rhetorical question or a desire to hear my take on how? Btw, you mentioned discounts on mobility. I know Dwarven Battle Cry offers a similar dilemma, but it's something to me how one of elves' best escaping/ambushing cards also grants enemy elves the chance to follow or escape the crucial moment AFTER you position your party with Elvish Scamper. Another good point. Fwiw, because I have so much elf wiz experience -- and in my thread-starter, lemme be clear, I'm not saying I'm some great player who uses elf wizards, I'm just saying the evidence affords that I have more usage experience than many others -- I see getting one in QD as my ace in the hole since I can often QD-build one half decently anyway, and many opps will see him/her as my handicap. Nevertheless, like you said about the comforts of your own Keep vs drafting on the fly, I have also often seen my QD elf wizzes not make it past the first round or two. (All that said, I've grown tired of QD and have rarely played it in months.) Wow. Nice. I didn't even think about my "Card Ideas" wording hitting Dynamic and Thick Hide Armor -- but I like that. It once again emphasizes an elf's movement being his/her strength. Fascinating. As for card quality, I just looked at the Harnesses for my standard while keeping in mind that a proper Boost reaction that Moves one out of the way utterly cancels the action. A Melee Attack won't even receive All Out Attack as someone pointed out somewhere; it's cancelled before it even gets that far; the target simply isn't there anymore. Therefore, this is almost like enhancing blocks, except in a more limited, specialized way. ~ Nevertheless, it seems the Harnesses' amount of Armor and their rolls-after-self-Boost also affect their quality, and Heightened Senses in its current draft doesn't even have a dodgy reaction itself, thus I see your points -- as a fellow-player who's not actually introducing a new card, lol, but rather just theorycrafting and .., yeah, suggesting to BM. ~nod~ Free Card would be an interesting addition. My inital thought was that it should raise the quality cost, but then I remembered Officer's Harness and Lucky Charm... ~ Fwiw, another idea came to mind today. (I might as well post it in Card Ideas after I post here.) Intended only for Elf Skills, a Move|Boost without Keep, and upon an enemy triggering it, you draw a card and Move. If you're thinking like dwarves' Toughness, (not to mention Parry and Catch Arrow,) then bingo, that's exactly what I'm going for. A one-time cancel-and-draw card, but movement-associated for elves' sakes. Am I clear that I don't feel the elf-movement-is-their-strength aspect has been explored fully enough compared to human team-tactics and dwarven durability? $E^ J I have more ideas along these lines, but there's still an issue that hasn't been stated here: a block generally lets you live and stay in place, and an armor generally lets you live and stay in place, but a reactive movement (including Uncanny Dodge) generally lets you live by not staying in place. This is still disadvantageous for trying to stake claim on a victory square. (Brief mentions of other ideas. 1. Move when targeted, period, with either a high-risk roll with Keep or a low-risk roll without Keep. 2. Create some sort of Move card in-hand when targted/affected from the front. 3. Trait probably, if so then Duration 2 or 3: create an extra racial card in-hand at the beginning of a round. This one could then be funny for Boosts from Radiation Assists. $;^ b Ha ha ha, double handicap, eh? $;^ b Spoiler: Macizo plight 1 [plīt] NOUN a dangerous, difficult, or otherwise unfortunate situation: "we must direct our efforts toward relieving the plight of children living in poverty" (Oxford Dictionary via Bing) $¦^ P But yes, glad to hear others saying we want to see more diversity in the game, practically requiring more viability granted to the minoritiest. (Don't bother looking up minoritiest. I made that one up. Smallest minority.)
I thought of something else today, which led me to yet more core issue thoughts. The "Heightened Senses" idea (+1 to any roll on a Move card) in its current wording would affect Move|Boost like Dodge and Jump Back and Move|Armor like Dynamic and Thick Hide, okay. It would also affect Hard To Pin Down and Surging Shield Block. It would also affect Laser Thrust -- a lone card that would gain a +1 to damage usually but (perhaps more important for a flimsier elf) cut Malfunction chance in half. Huh. That made me think, that particular hypothetical card idea (with that wording) still favors warriors, and to an extent priests, leaving wizards which comparatively paltry defenses. Perhaps the other elven classes could indeed use that boost, I don't know, but it'd only be (potentially) more wiz-favoring if the wording specified Move|Boost hybrids. A meleer can get, what, five such cards before racial skill? Whereas a wiz can get, what, 10+ off the top of my head, no problem, and something like 7 in that pre-Elven Maneuvers-nerf Electro-Laser deck I showed? This still comes back to the elven defensive issue: their best defense is to not be there. That's excellent for the glass cannon aspect of winning by out-damaging, but that's a lot more detrimental to the glass cannon aspect regarding the other half of the game (in MP's context anyway) concerning standing on Victory Squares and passing. That means you have to stand in place. You have to be there. Heheh. $¦^ b In particular, you have to be there. When you stand here, there, or yonder, the (melee) enemy has to make the choice, ignore the glass and bear the onslaught (which a dwarf can generally do) -- control magics notwithstanding -- or attempt to hunt you down, which an experienced player facing another experienced player will likely suspect might take a lot of effort and/or cards and maybe or maybe not even achieve the goal. (Well, that was before Vengeance stacking existed, eh?) Fortunately for the enemy, there are usually 2-6 bright yellow bullseyes just yearning for meat -- and an even more concentrated 1 for leagues. Chasing just got a lot easier. In short, (non-hypothetical example,) even stacking Reflexive Teleport means an elf wiz has trouble with half the multiplayer PvP experience. Wanna live? Great. Be somewhere else. Like, not on the Victory Squares. (Plus, frankly, stacking RT generally means you're equipping a bunch of bad cards, too.) I've made successful elf wizards as singletons. I apparently just don't have what it takes to go double or triple. In other words, to keep an elf wiz alive and take Victory Squares and deal with any dead draws (especially in weaker decks built on weaker inventories), I've needed other race/class support. Apparently, so does nearly everybody else since someone exceptional like Sniffy gets such a reputation for doing what practically nobody else does. ~~ While searching for other things in the last day or so, I came across the Elves!!!!!! and Elf wizards are no longer the worst class in the game! threads. (Note to mods: Maybe that poll should be frozen since the context was nearly two years ago?) A lot of interesting points, many still relevant, even if more in concept than in detail, plus some funny hopes/predictions -- probably my favorite being this, written almost exactly two years before this exact thing happened. $¦^ b But again, a player makes this combo more powerful by holding back the elf from equipping so many Moves, which is quite the irony.
