Custom PvP maps for a tournament?

Yeah, and on how big an effect on the stats a couple AI players are. Wish we had more detailed info

 

These "couple AI players" play thousands of games each month so it might effect more than you think. But yes, it would be cool to get some official stats on this.

 

Attached below is a PvP version of The Contest. A couple of comments:

• characters are randomly assigned a starting position in any of the 4 rooms. This means that you will either have 3 vs. 3 with one room empty, or 2 vs. 2 with the lat two characters standing alone in a room.
• center room has 4 victory squares that are surrounded by two rows of difficult terrain (stairs)
• if you do not like the enemy character standing in front of you, you can use the tunnel and escape to the next room

I don't know if this would work as a tournament map, but it's definitely different from usual maps so it could be interesting. If anyone wants to test it out, please do.

 

I saw you playing it with Huey, the map is cool for pvp, but i would not make it with the random respawns, imagine a elf mage starts near a dwarven warrior with vicius trust and aoa? or something in that lines..

 

Yes, but because the players know the map beforehand, they can adapt. Using a soft target like Elf Wizard, with no defensive cards, in a map like that would probably be a bad idea. But even if someone took an Elf Wizard, and assuming the situation was how you described it, maybe the Elf Wizard goes first and just Frost Jolts that warrior?

I think that a map like that would be an interesting deckbuilding challenge because you would need to design each character so that they won't fold in 1 vs. 1. Alternatively you could give them tons of escaping cards and free movement so that they could quickly take the center without having to fight 1 vs. 1.

Also it doesn't really matter if the spawns are random or not because you never know what characters your opponent uses. For example if you know where "player 1, starting square 1" is, and you build your team so that your Elf Wizard starts there, what's to stop your opponent from building their team so that a Dwarf Warrior starts at "player 2, starting square 1"? My point is that the randomness of 1 vs. 1 matchups comes from the teams who are fighting, not the map.

 

actualy its a good point you make. the map itself seems prety cool and as u said a interesting deckbuilding challenge

 

The first tournament will probably run this week on Saturday, so if you want to submit your PvP maps, please do so during the next 48 hours. Thanks. If we fail to get enough maps, we'll just use the ones Tuknir posted or maybe use random maps that have been posted before.

Keep in mind that because players know the maps in advance, and are allowed to tweak their builds accordingly, maps do not have to be "balanced". You can builds maps with some specific build or strategy in mind, as long as it's not too obvious like a 15 x 15 map with nothing but open terrain. In other words, you can get really creative here. The deckbuilding challenge for participants will be to decypher the map and make the best possible build for each round.

 

Hey SLG, here's a PvP map...

I'm using Farbs' guild hall map as the basis, so if he objects to that use, we can throw this out, but I think I got his permission to use it for a blanket array of mapmaking applications the other day. The basic idea of this map is that long ago, a guild disbanded in a hurry and left its guild hall mostly intact, and full of interesting artifacts. Time has torn down some of the hall's walls and otherwise tarnished the building, but there must still be valuables within! So two rival gangs/guild scouting parties descend upon the hall and find themselves competing for control of the ruins.

Just a .brd file, so you can set up whatever scenario you like in terms of title & timer &c.

Can't screenshot it on the comp I'm using right now (screen res is so low you'll see like, 4 squares). Did just test it with Dave, and it seems to work fine.

(Thought it would be fun to have a guild-themed stage in this tournament.)

 

Thanks. Looks great but there is one issue. The map is asymmetrical Also I noticed you have multiple starting positions for characters. I think it would be better if there were only 3 spots because it would be, you guessed it, more symmetrical that way.

I was also wondering if the map was a bit too large. You could maybe shave off one whole row from N-E and S-W sides to make it smaller? The map fits on the screen just fine when I look at the board only, but when you actually use it, the cards kind of block the lower part of the map. Not a huge deal but something I noticed.

Lastly it uses 6 victory squares. I don't know if there is a problem with that, but no other PvP map that I know of uses 6 victory squares, so maybe there is some potential issue with it? There is very little space between the squares so I don't know if it would be a problem. Only obvious problem that I can come up with would be if the squares were at the opposite sides of the map, and everyone just sits there without being able to move, because moving means your opponent gets points.

The guild hall thing is a great idea. It would be both fun, and promote the guild thing, getting a couple of people to join maybe. If it was tweaked so that it's symmetrical (I'm talking about gameplay-wise of course), I think it should be used as one of the 5 maps (or maybe 6 maps).

 

The victory squares weren't a problem in testing, would be glad to do more testing though. Regarding the asymmetry, it's entirely in difficult terrain, and none of it affects how easy or hard it is to get to a given victory square. Both sides have the exact same access to victory squares in terms of squares. Dave and I both felt like it didn't really matter. But if it's a deal breaker for you we can investigate.

Can also def shave off a row or two.

 

Here are three maps. They're rough, and I've only played them a few times, but it sounded like the tournament wanted maps. I may tweak them further; everyone else is also welcome to do so. I'll put in brief comments about playing the maps.



Dwarf Pavilion - a ring of difficult terrain (steps) separating an outer "racetrack" from the central platform. Four victory squares are arranged in square formation at distance two, with a single blocking column in the middle of the entire formation.

This map is susceptible to whirls, because there's a 3/4 chance of getting placed outside the platform. (I wouldn't mind banning whirls on this map so people try something more creative. There are also various counters.) There are four squares with line-of-sight to all four victory squares, BUT, those positions also have huge blind spots. Victory squares are within stab/step range of most other squares.




Dwarf Pavilion #2 - This map removes the "racetrack" from Dwarf Pavilion, so that whirls become nearly useless. The map is cramped, but, like the original, certain positions have good line-of-sight over the victory squares.




Forest Glade - I'm ambivalent towards this map. It feels claustrophobic, and has some weird lines-of-sight, but there are certain strong positions for wizards, if they can reach them. Step-warriors have lots of good cover, but it's also too narrow to flank characters when attacking head-on.

 

Small things like that naturally won't have a big effect in a couple of tests, but they can potentially make a huge difference if the circumstances are right. This is why I think all maps should be symmetrical. It's the only way to be 100% sure that there is no advantage to either player. This is a logical rule that BM also follows.

Well, there's the window as well. Not a huge deal of course, but still, it could potentially change the game.

There is no need to investigate. Rather than getting into endless academic debates over map asymmetry and how it affects the results, we can just not use any asymmetrical maps and the problem instantly goes away. I don't think that the guild map will fail if it's made symmetrical. There's still the visual clutter etc. that will give the impression of a more "real" map.

Nice. I'll give some quick comments.

I personally think that Dwarf Pavilion #1 is better. #2 is, like you said, a bit cramped.

Forest Glade is really cool visually and looks great gameplay wise as well. One problem though is that the one map by Tuknir that I already kind of picked, also has only one victory square. I would have preferred not to have two 1-vp square maps in the same tournament. So maybe one of the two has to be discarded for now, or maybe changed a bit, I don't know.

Which one of these is your favorite? Which one would you like to see in the tournament?

 

i seen the screenshots, Forest Glade, seems cool so if you want use it isnteadof mine its ok , its nice to see ppl making maps

 

My vote would go to Dwarf Pavilion #1.

Forest Glade felt... weird... when I played it, like there's some subconscious expectation for MP maps that it's breaking. That feeling might detract from the tournament slightly. (Or just make it more challenging!)

 

I'll edit the guild map and get back to you SLG, how much time do I have left? I'm on a crappier machine right now and I'm a bit behind on work, but I'll try to get you a final version of the board ASAP...

 

Hmm.. maybe more testing is needed then? Maybe we could use it in the next tournament?

Unless anyone objects, we'll go with the original PvP Cellar by Tuknir and Dwarf Pavilion #1 by neoncat.

Then we have the Contest, which is a bit weird since it was built by me, and I'm not 100% comfortable with basically abusing my power and picking my own maps. But if we don't get more submissions, we don't have much choice, unless we take multiple maps from same designer that is.

Last one we have is the Guild Hall map by Flaxative, which I'm hoping gets finished on time.

This would give us a total of 4 maps and we need only one more. If no new maps are submitted, we could for example take the ice lake map by Tuknir. This way all 5 maps would have different types of VP square positions.

Any comments or suggestions on this?

Thanks! The sooner you could do it the better, but I would say that the final deadline is around 8pm GMT tonight (48 hours before the event is supposed to start). Hopefully you can make it. And I think you can because it doesn't need any major tweaks.

 

Hey, here's an updated version of the Guild Hall Fight board.

I think we should have a fifth map, maybe another of Tuknir's, or a Blue Manchu one that we all like. Just for variety. But yeah anyway, here's mine.

 

Sorry for missing some of the peripheral spots. Tried to make sure this was symmetrical with terrain at 100% opacity. The only thing that isn't, I believe, is the window out onto the water from the kitchen which has no game effect.

 

Yes, this is exactly what I did.

Thanks. I had a look and the map seemed to be perfect.

We now have all five maps. Thanks for everyone who participated in the planning and submitting.

EDIT: here's the topic