Done with Card Hunter for now -- Here's some feedback

Then I'm afraid I don't understand the issue here. Games when I've lost due to draws have been more "Hey, nobody draw anything buck blocks or move cards for three turns in a row" kind of thing.

And my experience running Magic tournaments for years matches Foz's. Both online and in person, people rarely quit on the first turn. The closest I've seen is intentional draws at tournaments, when both players can hit the top 8 if they tie.

One could argue for mulligans in CH, but I'm not sure there's much benefit there, with 4 card hands and smaller decks, Paris mulligans would get to 0 cards too quickly.

 

Main issue being this should have been moved to the feedback sub-forum, like, a long time ago.

 

Really? I know freedom is upheld at a very lofty height in the American mindset, but freedom is always for something, it is meaningless to seek freedom for freedom's sake. I can't think of a single thing that I see as a bad thing (something I would avoid doing) which I'm currently not allowed to do, but that my experience would be more enjoyable if I was allowed to do it. If you walk up to a vegetarian and wave a steak in front of their nose and say "You're not allowed to have this," they're going to look at you like you're crazy, not like you just ruined the salad they're eating.

 

Not seeing where the part I quoted said anything about draws. I was trying to say that YOUR behavior and opinions are in line with the policies of Blue Manchu. The 'issue' in this thread is Sir Valimont's disagreement with everyone except maybe Kalin and Sir Veza (and neoncat? is he still relevant?), whom I understand as being sympathetic to some of Valimont's desires. Hey, I'm sympathetic to Valimont's desires too - he's a customer - but I think Scarponi hit the nail on the head in his latest post in this thread.

 

The problem is believing its reasonable not to allow people to resign early. It's not reasonable. That's about as simple as I can put it.

Vegetarianism is not a bad analogy. Like vegetarians, people who don't care about the freedom to resign early in a card game are a small minority. If I walked into a vegetarians' convention and suggested we pass a law that banned meat-eating for everyone they'd elect me president ... but you can be sure 90% of the general population would not agree. You have a policy against meat-eating here; I'm telling you most people want that freedom but you can't see it because you personally don't think meat-eating has any place in regular gameplay, so-to-speak. In this case people may only eat meat once a week, but telling them they can't eat it at all is extremely offensive to their sensibilities and will make your club less popular. If your goal is to provide the best experience for you, that's no problem. If your goal is to provide an experience that most people will enjoy, it is a problem.

 

I see you've got a vegetarian restaurant here. I like to eat meat, so this isn't really my kind of place. I'll just go eat somewhere else. No biggie. By the way, the regulars here don't seem to mind, but you are preparing your vegetables all wrong.

 

Sorry Flaxative, I didn't mean with you, I meant the issue with this whole thread. I don't see how resigning turn one has much point, and if it turns out that your draws are all so bad that you'll definitely use after a couple turns, there's not a problem. Honestly, you don't have enough info to know if you should resign in turn one, Sir Valimont, so I'm not quite sure what the argument is about.

 

I think you should stop using the word "personally." First it's my personal opinion, now it's Scarponi's, next it'll be Bluemage's. Thing is, you can't make a populist appeal to folks who aren't actually involved in the game. There effectively is no 90% of people who disagree with how this goes. We've had like two people in the history of the game complain about it—you and neoncat. So I think it's pretty obvious which opinions are personal and which aren't. Trust me, people don't not play the game at all because of the match-throwing policy. And the lovely members of our community who sympathize with you largely because they find multiplayer stressful and not their cup of tea, well, that's fine—not every mode of every game is for everyone, even if those people do like other things about the game.

I think Magnifico's post is incredibly on point.

I'm also incredibly confused as to why you're still waving the steak in our faces. What's your goal here? You want to play ranked CH and resign early often, and you're hoping that BM changes its policies in order to enable you to do that?

 

Usually. Long ago, @Kalin wrote that he failed to check his build and showed up with a party of naked elves. I think that could do it for most players.

 

Yeah, that would do it. Though if you're doing that often, I think you may have problems more pressing than the devs being annoyed with you.

 

If you enter MP with the wrong party, or no party, you know, explain to your opponent and resign.

 

Haha. Your analogy is apt except I'm not telling you you're preparing your vegetables wrong. I'm telling you you're severely limiting your potential clientele, and it doesn't seem like you realize that.

Let me put it this way. I have never seen a game -- let alone a card game -- with a PvP aspect where players are disallowed from resigning early, for whatever reason. Well, until this one. And I've seen a heck of a lot of games. It's totally, totally cool to be a vegetarian restaurant. But are you aware that you're a vegetarian restaurant? It sounds to me like most people here believe it's totally normal to say "no resigning early." I'm telling you it's the only game I've ever seen that even considers it important enough to make a rule.

I'm here telling you about the everyone else who isn't here. You can take issue with what I'm saying on any number of levels, including thinking that I am wrong about what everyone else who isn't here thinks. I think it's pretty obvious that a majority of gamers think one way and you may disagree. No worries.

PvP in this kind of game is a scary proposition for most gamers. It's more challenging than PvE on a lot of levels including socially. Then you add the fact that a game takes 20 minutes. It's really surprising to me that anyone wouldn't see the need for quick resignations as an absolute remedy available absolutely any time. I think the proverbial 90% of gamers would agree with me, even if they aren't here to comment.

 

I seriously doubt 90% of gamers (or anyone else) would agree about much of anything.

 

But he's telling us for everyone else who isn't here!

Also this

Spoiler: the sad truth

 

How many games with bad draws take 20 minutes to get to a point where you could justifiably say gg and quit because you know you've lost?

If you draw a nothingburger over the first three turns and are getting wiped, and say gg and quit, that shouldn't take the repeatedly quoted 20 minutes. A quick look over at the Meta site here: http://cardhuntermeta.farbs.org/scenarios.php shows that most of the constructed multiplayer games run 10-12 minutes, the quick draw run 17, but half of that is drafting the cards. So if you have bad draws and play for the first few turns, that's probably what, five minutes? Maybe eight? Is there something I'm missing here?

 

Most of our players never play multiplayer and I guarantee you it's not because of the match-throwing policy. Your hubris in thinking you speak for everyone in the world who doesn't play our game is frankly hilarious. I'm really sad that you didn't respond to my question directed at you about your goals, because I am now forced to assume you're trolling, an assumption I've staved off for two months, and that means I've wasted time responding to you that I could have otherwise spent playing this game I love, building new features for this game I love, or even something marginally useless but more enjoyable like getting drunk with my friends. Near every argumentative technique you've used has been some kind of baseless assumption (unless we're supposed to buy your hollow ethos appeals about doing your research, then maybe it goes down to only half). In other threads you've persistently responded to only parts of comments, going some 10+ pages without understanding things explained in painstaking detail by multiple posters.

Some have chided me before and warned me the customer is always right but you're not even our customer anymore.

We've had hilarious trolls on our forum before, and we've had aggressive trolls on our forum before. You're clearly in the former category, and if you want to hang around and be a clown, by all means, you can join their ranks.

For the actual customers in this thread, note Valimont's claims here:

Many online games that take themselves even remotely seriously and try to foster a community that increases the likelihood that players can play the game make it hard to resign (in League of Legends, your team has to vote to surrender) and if one player rage quits/abandons the game, that player is often penalized (my understanding is that this is the case in both LoL and DotA). Our rules are far from a crazy outlier. We don't have the technical systems in place to automatically enforce them the way the two games I just mentioned do ... but the goal is the same and the reasoning is the same.

 

1. False. Online games may apply a penalty to resigning (i.e. you lose ranking points -- normal and valid). They don't make it "hard" to resign. That is the wrong approach. I know it's semantic but I think it's important -- design should not be driven by making it difficult to resign. Resigning is a release from the game. If players feel trapped in a PvP game (exactly how it feels here) that makes the prospect less appealing. The penalty is understood and normal, and separate to this concern. (I don't actually think we're disagreeing, I just want to make that distinction.)

2. Players quitting in a group context are not comparable to players quitting in a 1v1 context. Quitting in a group context carries a completely different dynamic -- you are affecting the entire group. The main issue is that your decision to quit can easily make players who didn't want to quit lose. I still don't know of any 1v1 PvP games where you're not allowed to resign early for any reason at all.

No, I don't think you're missing anything. I totally agree with what you're saying actually. I think you're talking about when someone resigns because his hand is bad though. I'm talking more generally, because I think there are a ton of other reasons you might resign. I think those are all valid reasons, de facto. The way I see it, any time a player is playing a game with good intentions, everything he does is valid.

The main point I was trying to make in this thread is that if your goal is to get PvE players to try PvP -- which is intimidating to most -- you don't want to be telling them they can't resign early if they get uncomfortable for whatever reason. It doesn't help basically to say that they're "playing wrong" if they resign early or that they are bad sports or whatever. I get that vibe, strongly from this community. In other words, I get the vibe that not only are you discouraged from resigning, but that everyone thinks resigning is a bad thing to do, not worthy of good gamesmanship and so on. I disagree with that attitude. That's all I'm saying.

 

Just to back up a little here let me just point out:

I think this is a very minor issue. This is a completely fantastic game in most every way. The game design is excellent, as is the game balance, as are the graphics, the overall setting, the play options. I think what we're talking about here is a minor community management problem, nothing more.

The only reason this thread exists is I am a card player who decided not to stick around and play, and I thought it might be useful to tell you why, that's all. I'm really just trying to be helpful. If my style of debate is dogmatic or seems conceited, I apologize. I mean that sincerely; I don't mean to offend or annoy any of you. I think it's a nice community of intelligent people -- I wouldn't have posted in the first place otherwise.

Cheers!

 

Flax, if you're getting that bummed out responding to this thread, just back away and do the things you love. As you told Valimont earlier, no one is obligated to convince everyone. If you stick around to the point where you start calling people trolls, it's just adding to the bad blood.

Plus if you help me move stuff this weekend, I'll give you beer.

 

Point of information:
http://forums.cardhunter.com/thread...queue-times-in-mp-incentivize-resigning.2715/
http://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/how-often-do-you-resign.3874/
http://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/suggestion-ask-players-feedback-when-they-resign-in-pvp.3976/
http://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/farming-mp-with-your-sp-build.4539/

(If this thread train wreck ever ends, I won't have a reason to keep coming to the forums besides the anime thread. )