PvE droprates are too low

I totally get it, I'm just saying the actual situation is the exact opposite. People who don't like PvP are feeling forced into it. And then some. The best possible PvE grind right now is to sign up for a league and never play a match.

As a totally separate issue, I think more endgame PvE content would be awesome, of course.

 

Buying booster packs? That's available to all players at all stages, and I guess it's true that it's obviously the best loot/time you can possibly get since it takes 5 seconds.

 

Someone asked for comparisons with other games on time to complete a collection. And I didn't have any answers for that (though it wouldn't surprise me if online versions of Magic took much longer than CH). And so I made a different comparison.

The Loot Fairy is a good daily reward, but way more complicated than anything I've seen elsewhere, and unavailable (and unknown) to many players. This was the main point of my previous post, sorry I didn't word it well.

Daily rewards will bring players back each day, and sometimes that's enough to get someone past something that frustrated them in regular play. Also, there's a difference between "better rewards for SP" and "encouraging SP players to keep playing". Giving every player a Rare treasure the first time they log in each day would take care of league fees and encourage SP players to keep coming back.

Might?

Thanks for saving me the trouble of looking up all those links!

And the lack of summary is because most of it really is feelings and preferences and perceptions. BM's choices will have some affect on those things, but not always what was intended. I know that back when MP players were complaining about being required to farm SP for gold, at the same time I was complaining about having to play MP to get any Rares. (Then the Loot Fairy came along and saved me from MP. )

I'd like to keep these options open. I'm not asking for major changes, but I really don't think things are balanced right now.

I'd love to see new SP content (mid and endgame), but I know from personal experience how much work it takes, and it's been nearly a year since the last expansion and you're being really vague as to just what we'll be getting from EttSC. And it's not going to help players who quit early in the game.

Silence doesn't always mean they're happy, it could mean they already quit. Of course, most people who quit were looking for a different game in the first place, so we can't do anything about them.

 

So on the one hand we have people claiming that players will always adopt the most awful, monotonous procedures possible if they are efficient... but on the other, @Flaxative is saying that hardly anyone who plays SP is a super-farmer. These ideas are at odds. I speculate that either most people avoid it because it is even more awful than farming in other games, or the requirements for actually accomplishing this in CH are insanely lofty. Either way, I notice a disconnect here; to some degree that aberrant farming behavior is distorting balance. People who aren't going to engage in that sort of optimization are much further behind SP farmers than bad MP players are behind good MP players, in my opinion, meaning SP currently has a much higher spread of potential player experiences (drop-wise). This is almost certainly the case because MP balances you at your skill level, so most players are existing in a state where they go 50/50 once they reach correct ELO. A skilled SP player with the right gear and setup, however, can farm so many more items than a casual SP player, and that difference in potential yield may have SP casuals too far behind the item curve to the point where any sort of MP playing would clearly yield far better rewards. It's difficult to balance a system with such insane levels of disparity.

To be clear, I'm saying the large variety in SP behavior (and resulting disconnect due to insanely different experience of item drops) is to some degree causing this issue.

I also note that if few people get close to the max SP drop rate, then I question why rewards regarding SP/MP balance are being based on those numbers. If, as Flax suggests, the concern of a few super-farmers having larger collections than their MP counterparts is a non-issue, then wouldn't it make more sense to regard the typical player experience instead of the outliers? As I explained in an earlier post, I'd prefer to see a stiffer cap put on SP farming so the balance calculation could go more in favor of SP drops and less weighed down by the need to keep super-farming in check. People that aren't avid farmers but want to replay some SP content are consistently saying rewards aren't good enough here, while dedicated farmers are saying they are. Why can't we close that gap by allowing less super-optimized farming behavior, which would in turn allow the more typical SP experience to be a little more rewarding?

 

We have done things along the lines you're suggesting (taking the treasure table out of the kobolds mission, for one), so it's not something we are opposed to.

Kalin: sorry for being vague about the expansion. Not all the details are set in stone and I don't want to guarantee something I can't. I've been wanting to be able to tell players what to expect in terms of missions, etc, for a while now... I'll check with Jon and get back to you. Also regarding keeping options open, note that I said we weren't going to do those things "right now."

 

Foz, Flaxative explicitly said

and

so it seems to me things are already progressing in the direction you want.

I don't think at any point has anyone in power said or implied or shown by their actions that the behaviour of a few superfarmers is the baseline for any loot drop adjustment decisions. * To say so is mere conjecture and speculation. From what we have seen from Blue Manchu there is no reason to expect they would ever start such behaviour. Their design philosophy can be clearly followed via the blog, they've been very open about the process the whole time.

* The repetition grinding was curbed for the benefit of everyone when the diamond mines were scoured. This was so no one would be motivated to bore themselves silly any more, not because a few were doing it to excess. It was very widespread behaviour at the time at least among the communicating part of the community.

 

As for anecdotal evidence about SP loot drops, I just completed 7 of the lowest level adventures (2-5) hunting for Looty, 20 maps all told.

I got 4 Epics and 4 Rares. Huh.

I'm a Club member, half of those were in the Club slot. Deduct as applicable.

 

Actually...

Bold added by me for emphasis. Flax said exactly what I was just talking about which is why I referred to that.

 

My very VERY new play perspective, and as some one who doesn't intend to participate in pvp, only pve, I have no issue with pvp offering better rewards... as long as pve rewards are balanced such that if you only play pve, you still feel as if you're continually making progression. This is the most difficult balancing act of all loot games, one I've heard the diablo dev's expound upon on many an occasion, so its easier said then done, but as long as pve never reaches a point such that I feel I'm being forced to pvp to progress, the fact that I could be progressing faster via pvp does not negatively effect me. The fact that card hunter does not offer trading, however, should make this a much easier thing to control, since extreme grinders and gold farmers can't negatively effect anyone's experience but their own.

Being so new to the game I haven't even reached the games pve end game content, but it sounds like the major point of dissension here isn't that pvp gets better rewards, but that you eventually reach a point in pve where its nigh impossible to feel any meanigful further progression with out going to PvP. If this is because you've completed all pve content and replaying it doesn't give great rewards... well, there's no other pve content to use your new rewards on anyway, so who cares? What's the point of having a better sword or staff if you have nothing to use it against? Conversely unless you have every card in the game rewards never lose their meaning in pvp, because theres always new opponents to face and if you don't have the best items, some one else probably does, so its far more compelling to want to get improved loot in that format.

So yeah, I only skimmed this topic and I'm new to the game and late to the conversation, but from what I read I feel like blue manchu is handling things extremely well, especially if they are indeed working on additional end game pve content which sounds like where the real need is currently at, new fun challenges that give pve players a reason to want new and better cards, while offering them themselves as rewards.

 

WTF, over?
@Foz - So speed farming has gone from "degenerate" to "aberrant" and "the most awful, monotonous procedures possible".
This only addresses your opinion. To me, "the most awful, monotonous procedure possible" is to play MP and wait two minutes for my opponent to make the obvious move. Queuing time is also a bore. But this only addresses my opinion.
As to being able to replay SP adventures, Farbs said this was necessary to implement SP Co-Op, with the added benefit of allowing new players who hit a wall to replay lower level adventures for reduced loot and experience. I did this, and hated not being able to play until the next day.
SP is not competitive. IMO it should be play when you like, how you like, as much as you like, which makes me wonder why Flax would say ...
@Flaxative - We don't even like SP farming...
You are on record as having some strong opinions about the "proper" way to play the game, bro, but does this extend to the rest of BM? I certainly hope not. I believe that as long as it doesn't grossly interfere with other players or involve cheating, any chosen playstyle should be allowed.
If your kids play with the boxes their new toys came in, rather than the toys themselves, it really is because they find the boxes more interesting. Which is kind of how I feel about the AotA expansion. I bought it to support BM, but I really wish it had come in a box.

 

Ah, that quote from Flaxative can be read two ways. It depends on whether the "speed farmers" referred to are the extreme outliers or an average player with average gear speed farming with average skill and speed. From Flaxative's further comments I strongly infer he meant the latter. Confirming this is up to him. I get your reading, though.

 

Er ... I don't know that I have anything useful to add.

I started this conversation not because I have an axe to grind or knew anything about the change history.

All I am is a veteran card player who, upon a bit of experience (about two weeks here), simply is shocked by how unbalanced the PvP and PvE rewards are. I don't really need a bunch of statistics to justify this since quite frankly the numbers are so unbelievably skewed. I've won about 30 ranked matches and every single chest I've won has been great. I've completed about 100 campaign maps (replays) and every single chest I've won has been terrible.

Unless I should have played the lottery and won six times in a row, this is indicative of a system where I either have to play PvP or have to not enjoy playing PvE. I don't really mean to paraphrase unfairly -- my point of departure is much like DanTheMeek -- who cares if other people advance more quickly -- but the PvE replayable content right now literally drops such bad loot that it makes it feel like a waste of time. I don't think it's reasonable to tell a casual PvE player that the loot drops are bad because theoretically someone could speed farm a quest per minute. That's not how I play and that's not how I'm intended to play by BlueManchu. There are plenty of ways you can fix the PvE content to prevent me playing that way, instead of preventing me from playing at all (the current solution).

Incidentally, is it not the case that after the first daily replay of a campaign the loot drops become horrible? So even a "speed farmer" should be able to play a PvE level only once per day for a decent reward? Why can't those rewards be better? I don't understand the logic. There are only so many PvE levels. Surely more than one rare can be slated to drop in 50 maps. Or an epic or two.

 

And for respecting that people play the game differently. The only one in this thread who's deciding how the game should be played right now is Sir Valimont. I referred to my past comments earlier to put things in perspective for him, not sure it worked.

 

Don't read too much into the language, I'm being colorful so I don't keep using the word "outlier," not trying to vilify what's going on. I conjecture that the current state of farming is causing drop disparity because it encourages vastly different player experience of item drops, and I see that as a problem causing the perceived weakness of SP drops from those who do not go to the extreme in their farming efforts. "the most awful monotonous procedures possible" is a paraphrase from someone else in the thread, I don't remember who at the moment. It was something about how players always find the easiest most boring way to accomplish a goal. I don't have a problem with farming per se, but I do think its current state is causing balance issues. Still my opinion, granted, but don't take it personally.

I wish it were so easy as that. Player freedom/desires and game balance concerns are sometimes at odds, and it is difficult to strike a reasonable balance between them. Is it good to allow a few to farm without restriction if it is causing many to feel their SP experience is relatively unrewarding? I find it difficult to answer that question objectively since I'm in one of the affected groups.

 

What? That is a false reading. On the contrary you have stated explicitly your intent to favor one style of play, and I have not. I play both PvE and PvP and enjoy both, in measure.

I never stated how I think someone "should" play the game. I referred to speed farming as an unintended use of the content. I didn't apply a value judgment to that. Clearly spamming Firestorms to beat PvE levels quickly is not an outcome you were hoping or planning for. Thus it's unintended and it results in things like nerfs, to deter that sort of play.

You have an issue with speed farming (welcome to the club 90% of games are in) because you are afraid it will sap players away from PvP. Well, first of all you've made the judgment call that players should be playing PvP and not gold farming. The claim that the poor PvP players were being forced to gold farm in the old system is pretty thin ... you could just remove the admission cost from PvP and there's no more connection. The real problem for you was that gold farming was a viable way to improve one's collection, and you had a personal preference for players to do that through PvP instead. So you nerfed farming. (Or you so buffed PvP drops that you nerfed farming by extension).

Obviously you don't think speed farming is as good a way for players to spend their time compared to PvP. That is 100% your judgment. I have never once said PvP is better or worse than any kind of PvE. I am simply stating that the design heavily favors one over the other in terms of how it rewards you.

 

I guess then I should have played the lottery and won ten times in a row as I today, an hour ago, got 4 Epics and 4 Rares from 20 maps (7 adventures) in SP. Which one of our experiences is the true indicative of the actual SP high-rarity loot drop rate? Does your anecdote beat my anecdote?

I'm not trying to wind you up, just pointing out the huge variance possible in the system. That's why we collected the stats (Veza mostly, kudos). We wanted to know and not guess any more. I get you've had a bad drop time of it in SP. I tried my best above to calculate the average based on the data we have and it seems to me SP is still the more lucrative one.

 

Maybe mistaken reading. Sorry if I misunderstood your earlier posts...

... but it's clear to me now that you're not reading what I'm saying either (league entry fees have nothing to do with anything I've mentioned), so I'll leave you to it!

 

Valimont, did you read the threads where the MP rewards were discussed? IIRC, they're full of people who explicitly state that they feel they need to play SP even when they want to play MP exclusively. It's not Flaxative's or Blue Manchu's idea. They reacted to player demand to make that way of playing the game more balanced.

 

Well, I played Tripple Duel today, got 3 wins in ~30 minutes, got Garalem's Boots, 1 Epic from Yellow chest and 2 Epic from Purple chest (rares not counted + I left other Yellow Chest reward for later).

But ok, both examples are out of context -> does it have to be stated again -> 1 Legendary item drop per 500 maps .. (plus there is a lot of unusable Legendary items, so its more like 1 playable Legendary per 800 maps)

 

We've already looked at the statistics for the PvE drop rates indicating a 1/1000 chance of a legendary item. Those rates are too low. It's nice that you got lucky - congrats.

I can't comment on how things were before as I wasn't here. If the entire reason people had to play SP was to garner a 50-gold entrance fee to a league, then they should have just dropped the fee.

Either way as it stands right now the PvP drop rate is much, much better than the PvE drop rate.