Let's talk about: Game Difficulty!

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by Pengw1n, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    The kobold warriors don't have that many parrys Woz (only been able to track 1 in their deck - could be more ofc) and multi targetting spells work well for triggering the mass blocks on those heavy number kobold maps. The map is best beaten by casters tbh, and just like Sir Knight suggested - it's best staying back in the starting area - that way your warrior & cleric will have to act as meatshields.

    Again, it's more a tactics issue with this map - than it being impossible - but yes, it's one of the toughest ones.
  2. Zalminen

    Zalminen Hydra

    Not to mention the Shambling Bashes (and the Lunging Bashes) the Kobold Avengers use. Even if you have enough Chops, those don't help much when you get bashed out of range with the first blow. And the Shambling Bash's 8 damage is half the hp of a 6th level character.
    I truly grew to hate that particular card during that adventure...

    Although this is already more about the second map than the first.
  3. irongamer

    irongamer Orc Soldier

    I'm not looking for conspiracies as there are a number of games that use this, or similar, mechanics to generate revenue. Although most of those are mobile games.

    Understandable. People have mentioned adventures that were difficult which I passed on the first try. I'm sure a number of the adventure in my difficult map list were easy for others. It is difficult to know if it was gear, deck build, someone becoming familiar with the game, or someone rushing combat. I believe the challenge and strategy are strong points of card hunter. What magnitude at which to set those two elements is tricky and tied to the target audience of the game.
  4. Janus

    Janus Kobold

    I definitely hit a hard difficulty bump around level 6, now again around 11. Hopefully you're collecting pass/fail metrics on mission attempts vs. completion, right? You should be able to quickly tell which dungeons need to be tweaked with a small set of data.

    Overall, I think the game is fun, but definitely too difficult - but fortunately I'm both a fan and a sucker for punishment. If you're going for the 'dark souls' crowd, you're probably right on track, but I think you'll be more successful overall by toning it down a bit.

    My #1 difficulty gripe is the fact that you don't get XP until you complete all the missions in a dungeon, and the treasure up until you complete everything is generally lame. There's nothing more disheartening than getting mostly through a campaign to find an unbeatable battle! Consider giving players something (XP!) for every chunk of progress, so at least we can grind against the hard levels if we want/need to.
    irongamer likes this.
  5. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    Hey great, I'm glad you came back to stay in the discussion.

    Like I linked before, they certainly are collecting statistics. I'd like to know more of them.

    The XP discussion is one we've had plenty. Don't forget that XP is a one-way street, and cannot be bought for money (unlike in-game gold), so the mechanism is tightly-controlled. Here's the most recent discussion.

    Problems with fractional XP include how to split, say, 2 XP across a six-map adventure or 20 XP across a two-map-with-an-easy-first-battle adventure.
  6. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    Note that while the random handouts you get between maps is generally common or uncommon there are no limits on the quality as far as i know. I even got one of the best wizard staffs in the game(at that time) from the second map on a level 4 adventure and that staff is epic.
  7. Megadestructo

    Megadestructo Shark Card

    Hey guys, we definitely collect data about the difficulty of our battles! Based on that data, we've decided to make our early levels more accessible to every kind of player -- particularly some of the levels you've been discussing, like those in the 'Diamonds of the Kobolds' adventure. Rest assured that we are taking a data-driven approach to game balance and that one of our goals in the early game is to allow everyone the ability to delve deeper into Card Hunter while avoiding frustrating bottlenecks. We're constantly striving to improve the balance and flow of the game so thank you for your continued patience as we work towards making Card Hunter the best it can be!
  8. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

  9. Zalminen

    Zalminen Hydra

    On the opposite side, just like Pengw1n noted in his tactical journey thread, the premium adventure Cliff of the Wyverns currently feels too easy for a level 16 adventure.

    The baby wyverns only draw 0.5 cards per figure per round which makes them more than a bit useless after the first turn. In addition their AI prefers to keep at a distance, which works against all the Bites, Swarm Attacks and Infected Bites in their deck. Once I happened to draw Resistant Hide, the fight just got silly. Every now and then some wyvern would move to melee range but it was always just one and only once per round and thus easy to evade.

    The same applies mostly to the young wyverns as well, although they at least draw 1 card per figure per round.

    The adult wyvern was the only one who immediately moved to melee range to attack but that may have also been just a random occurrence.

    I did like the progression from baby wyverns in the first fight to the adult wyvern in the last fight though but the last fight was the only one of the four that felt like any kind of a challenge.
  10. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    I think all the premiums are a bit out of whack, a good few of them are much harder than equal level adventures and some like the dragon and the wyvern are a tiny bit easy compared to same level adventures.
  11. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    I think most premiums are just fine, some have individual maps that are a bit hard (first map of Lord Batford's for instance), but none of them are frustratingly hard - as Zalminen mentioned, Cliff of the Wyvern was a bit of a walk in the park though, certainly expect that that to be tuned up.
  12. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    I have to disagree on that with examples like the whole ogre premium as well as both core adventures specifically.
  13. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    There's only one of the ogre maps I had to replay (the one with the goblin shredders - that one was pretty hard), the first core wasn't hard - but the second one was a bit challenging (but not frustratingly so), they can both be beaten with mobile teams pretty consistently.
  14. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    Still all those adventures are much harder than the ones of the same level. When you do them at the appropriate time with the appropriate gear they are a massive pain.
  15. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    Not really mate, I don't agree here - I had to check my tactical writeup - and I didn't really suffer (that much, there ARE some hard parts) playing at the intended gear/level.

    Last 2 ogre maps are hard - and VERY hard. I'd say last one might need tuning. I find it acceptable when I need a few retries after all.
  16. Zalminen

    Zalminen Hydra

    Yeah, the last ogre map is a bit brutal. With the other maps you can usually use the Mindless Battlerage against the goblins but on the last map the shredders come from a different direction and will often reach you on the first turn.

    You pretty much have to get good cards during the first couple of rounds or otherwise you're toast.

    The big mitigating factor with the two core adventures was the AI who had clear problems using the terrain spells:
    - AI never uses some of the cards at all (the ones that extend or spread out the previous terrain spells)
    - AI never plays new terrain spells if the target in a square with a previous terrain attachment, which means difficult terrain from a previous Cave In works as a sanctuary

    If those AI problems get fixed then yes, the difficulty level of the core adventures will jump considerably.
  17. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    We will have to agree to disagree on that. Would be very interested to hear what setups you guys used on the core adventures since you don't seam to have had the same experience as me at all.
  18. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    I'm thinking you might have run a lot of dwarves? I generally go for mobility with a lot of sprint and speed auras et c (and only a single dwarf on both occasions). Also, cleansing abilities on priest is very useful - as well as "forced" force push et c.
  19. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    I was actually running humans and i still couldn't move because on any given turn 1/4 the entire map was cave in for me. The adventure might have changed since i played it so I'll give it a chance but my experience was that anything except free move was meaningless to even bother with.
  20. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    I'm just rambling here, but I was thinking about difficulty across all possible games. I've brought up how videogames are often biased against the player to create a challenge. If I were to categorize based on that alone, I'd say difficulties can be ranked like so:

    "Casual," aka "biased in the player's favor," aka, "why am I playing this, it's too easy." Example: Facebook games.
    "Normal," aka "no programmed bias." Example: chess. (I'm not talking about facing a master: I'm talking about bias.)
    "Hard," aka "biased against the player." Example: the last stages of most action games.
    "Brutal," aka "learn how to win by losing." Example: Roguelike games.
    "Ridiculous," aka "why am I playing this, it's too hard." Example: I can't think of one right now.

    It's not completely true to label the "this is so easy, you cannot possible lose it" level as "casual," but I needed a name, so there you go. Anyway, I'll gladly play anything in the middle three levels. I believe Card Hunter is currently "brutal" on first play, and then "hard" once you have above-level characters and items.
    skip_intro likes this.

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