Wishing Well (new shop)

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by Magus, Jul 30, 2015.

  1. Magus

    Magus Orc Soldier

    Card Hunter has certain items that gate access to entire builds (Focused Healer, Blue Destruction, Vibrant Pain, et cetera), the majority of which are of very high rarity.. Despite leagues and new MP rewards making grinding much more palatable in general, it is still unreasonably difficult to get even a single copy of such an item - an epic chest has a 0.1%* chance of producing a specific legendary - and saying "you can't play this build without years of play" is unreasonable for any competitive game. On the other hand, Card Hunter is a CCG, and many players enjoy the collecting aspect of the game. How can we reconcile these? We cannot effectively modify card rarities without being unfair to our existing playerbase, who may have purchased these crucial legendaries from Randimar's, but here is something we can do, to make important legendaries available to those who need them without ruining the game for collectors:

    When players complete the campaign (or reach renown equal to the highest adventure level in the game), they receive access to The Wishing Well. The Wishing Well will sell you any number of copies of a single item of your choice per calendar month, at twice the normal shop price. Whatever one may say about CH's rate of releasing items, it is definitely greater than one legendary per month, so collecting traditionally will still play a large part in acquiring items, and 5000 gold per copy of the item is by no means a trivial cost (though it is attainable to any player who is willing to put in the effort) - but no longer will unfortunate players be completely unable to play the build they would most enjoy.

    (*Assumptions: Epics upgrade to legendaries at 15%. Commons upgrade to legendaries at 0.5%. All items of a given rarity in the game drop equally often.)
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
  2. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    I think you should unlock it at the end of the campaign(after cardstock 2), and you can choose items which you have equal or greater renown. Oh and allow them to buy any item excluding undroppables. Maybe when players complete adventures or win MP you can throw gold in to reduce the time til you can buy from the wishing well again.

    How about it takes 30 days for the wishing well to become unexhausted.
    When you complete an unexhausted adventure without a loot fairy or hidden bandit you can throw 2 gold in and reduce the time by half a day
    When you complete an exhausted adventure you can throw 1 gold in and reduce the time by quarter of a day
    When you win a ranked match you can throw 4 gold in and reduce the time by 1 day
    When you win a league match you can throw 2-4 gold(Per 5 minutes the time limit has you can throw in 1) in and reduce by quarter a day each
    So it would cost you 120 gold to reduce the time it takes by 30 days.
    Durandur2 likes this.
  3. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    I love the idea with my tweak.
  4. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    Well, since timeracers asked my opinion of it:
    I have no use whatsoever for this shop, and thus can't say I'm in favor of it.

    However, so long as it costs twice as much as basic shops, thus not devaluing their function, it doesn't bother me in any way, either.
    [On the flip side, if it had similar cost, that would significantly decrease the amount of pleasure I get earning items in the game.]

    And a neutral vote is as good as a yes vote, for matters like these, assuming an otherwise-majority vote. :)
  5. Xayrn

    Xayrn Hydra

    I absolutely love the spirit of this idea. I've thought the game needed a better way to work towards specific builds since I started playing, and I think this is definitely along the right track. I also think it's important to consider whether or not you should be able to obtain items you don't already have through this method, though. I would say probably not, since then you can't use the current inventory interface to select items. This has got me thinking about some similar ideas, but I'll leave those for a separate thread, as to not derail this one.

    With every class having at least 3 slots of a similar type, we definitely need something like this to make working towards certain builds more reasonable.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
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  6. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    Sorry, but I have to disagree on this one. If we'd had this I could have completed my collection before the expansion came out, but that really isn't the point.
    A basic tenet of Cardhunter seems to be that we can't just buy whatever we want. All loot, including items in the shops, are generated randomly. This eliminates the possibility of "Checkbook Champions." I don't think that's what you had in mind here, but I consider it a legitimate issue.
    As a result, another tenet seems to be to do your best with what thr RNG gives you. ;)
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  7. Obernoob

    Obernoob Hydra

    I have to disagree. Even with this well it will take a long time to get certain builds. Allthough playing for a long time, I still miss some of the legendaries, which open entire builds. This is for example the Asmod's Telekinetic Chain. Without this item it is not really possible to build a competive control wizard. Not to speak of items like Vibrant Pain or Strongarm. There are no items to replace them. But maybe the point of this discussion is whether you want a more balanced and competive game or a game more oriented on collecting cards.

    I like the idea of making the game not that much based on grinding. There was the idea of getting cards out of items in order to forge a new item, which makes sence with the name of the game. But I was not able to find that idea again.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2015
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  8. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    After discussing the matter [at notable length!] with @Magus, and getting the input of several other new PvP-based players who feel similarly, it seems like an addition that would encourage a lot of new PvP players to invest more into the game: Several have commented that once they get to a static ELO ranking where they're losing as much as gaining, they start feeling frustrated with the game because they can't easily or reliably pursue specific builds, but rather have to wait on random drops and hope they'll be useful, and it turns them off of the game.

    Certainly, while those are things I LIKE about the PvE- it makes it feel more like a tabletop adventure- I can appreciate the well-stated sentiments these players expressed, and understand how it negatively affects PvP [for players that don't care to play PvE at all].

    Given that it doesn't seem to meaningfully affect the PvE-based collection elements of the game- and may even help make it feel less grindy as things such as Alozyo's Arsenal adds in new individual items to find- it seems like a positive change for the game.

    Obviously, there's a lot to factor in, but this seems like a topic we should approach from the perspective of "Why can't we add this in for PvP-based players, and what do we need to change in it to allow us to do so," rather than from the perspective of "What could this possibly negatively affect in the game".

    In other words, when we find something that could compromise this from functioning, lets run the numbers to figure out if it actually would, and then see how we can fix it so it doesn't- rather than use it as an outright excuse to naysay the request.

    So, starting with @Sir Veza's point [which I also share sentiments of]:

    A basic tenet of Cardhunter seems to be that we can't just buy whatever we want.
    • Negatively affects collectivity. By how much? Does the x2 price increase compensate adequately?
      Is there really any major loss in making gold more valuable a resource and having shop selection being based more in providing discount and not counting toward wishing well monthly limit, than in being the only place to purchase items?
      Does the wishing well, with its strict limits, really affect collectivity in any way that the existence of basic shops doesn't already?

    All loot, including items in the shops, are generated randomly. This eliminates the possibility of "Checkbook Champions."

    • Negatively affects game fairness and balance. In what ways could this compromise the game? Does the once per month limit on the wishing well adequately compensate?
      • I can see this having a rather unfortunate effect on PvE in that all the most desired items would potentally be taken up in the first few months of play, making future runs of campaign a bit less interesting.
        • Regular updates with new interesting items would compensate
          /Though certain level ranges may become less interesting [eg if a player focuses on buying all the best tokenless items, or all the newest legendaries.]
          • Accept that people can value level ranges as they please, and limit new items from being purchasable. This has the added benefit of making newer players not feel as pressured by older players having stockpiles of older rarer items, since being able to purchase the same items puts players on more even footing [in both pvp and co-op], while still keeping new content exciting.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2015
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  9. Magus

    Magus Orc Soldier

    "and limit new items from being purchasable"

    First off, I should note I understand the reasoning behind this, but if "new items" is defined as "everything from the latest set", whenever a set comes out this problem will resurface; saying "you can't play this build now, but come back in a year" is better than "you can't play this build unless you grind for a year", but still not good. If there's something like a one-month waiting period or the like, it's much less of an issue.

    Second, I had a thought that I don't know if collector-type players would like or if is technically feasible, but I'm going to suggest it anyways. What if instead of just giving you the item for 5000 gold, you pay 2500 gold (or otherwise Randi's shop price) per copy of the item you want, and your next N legendary drops become that item (or if you prefer, until you get that item every legendary drop you earn has a 50% chance of being that item)? Might feel more satisfying than just buying it - still probably want the 1/month limitation.

    Third, if it were possible to limit items from this to MP only, that might be reasonable, but I don't think that's technically possible.
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  10. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    When I say random loot seems to be a basic tenet of Cardhunter, I'm talking about how Jon designed it. He seems quite dedicated to avoiding the Pay-2-Win syndrome. I've made a few suggestions myself, including trading 3 legendary items of equal or greater level for the one you want. Other suggestions involving this concept have often been made since launch. Probably since beta. I don't recall any others as generous as "any number of copies of a single item of your choice per calendar month, at twice the normal shop price," but I might have missed some. None of these, including crafting, have made it into the game.

    I understand the frustration of not getting the items needed for a desired build. I'm still there, actually.

    Jon has been addressing the general issue in a randomized non-P2W manner.
    • Randimar's now has a 10/10/10 weekly inventory. (It was just rares with a chance of upgrade, and weeks with no legendaries were common.)
    • Daily Deal added.
    • Leagues added.
    • PvP loot drops improved.
    He may decide to allow some method of obtaining a specific item, but at this point, I doubt it. (I've actually helped your proposal here, because I'm very often wrong about such things.) At it's heart, I think CH is still primarily a loot chase game. Buying directly would certainly undermine that. Buying indirectly, if constructed properly, might not.

    Side note: Before the nerfs to Trembling Staff, Winds of War, and encumber, and the buffs to Telekinesis, I don't recall Asmod's Telekinetic Chain being in much demand at all. So save your mediocre items, because they might be great after the next balance change.
  11. Magus

    Magus Orc Soldier

    It's a different issue, at least from a PvP perspective. The "game requires too much grinding to get a decent income"/"it's too hard to get items" (in general) issue has pretty much been solved. The "it's too hard to get a single specific item you need" issue has been addressed only by the Randimar's change (which definitely helps, but you can still get unlucky with that very very easily).

    From your perspective, as someone who grinds SP a lot, I understand why you're worried about P2W - from mine, as someone who strongly dislikes grinding, "grind-to-win" feels at least as bad if not more. I don't care if someone has more items than me because they spent thousands of dollars on the game or because they grind it 8 hours a day; it's still an unfair advantage within the context of a MP match, and still just as frustrating.

    Side note: I'm quite aware and do not sell anything except treasure and items I have a playset of.
  12. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    I really don't see P2W as an issue in SP, as it isn't competative. I'm primarily concerned about the overall health of the game, because I 'want it to stay around for a long time. I suspect you, and others who share your viewpoint, share this motivation as well.

    I believe some players will quit if they can't get the items they want in what they consider a reasonable amount of time, and others will stay, and play, and keep hoping. How prevalent is each type? Not a clue. Not even a good guess. I know Jon has had many requests for this type of thing over the years, so he knows there are players who want it. I'll voice my concerns, but I won't claim to know the best answer. Jon has the most at stake, and I hope he makes the best choice.
    I expected as much. ;) I have several Asmod's Telekinetic Chains that I never used until the buff, and it just struck me as kind of funny to see them listed as needed items. I confess I haven't played MP in quite a long time.
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  13. Magus

    Magus Orc Soldier

    Regarding motivation: I think the important part is to make something that will allow players to get the most important items but not make it trivial to get everything; this is where I feel CH currently fails - if you have 90% of important items, you probably have close to 90% of items in general; by the time you can actually play a fully competitive team, you are to the point where the rewards may be frustratingly useless. This is a lot of why I'm suggesting this - I'd like there to be a way to get the most important items at a much faster rate than the nice-to-haves, and without making a change that devalues existing collections this seems like the best way.
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  14. Obernoob

    Obernoob Hydra

    This made me come back to the game and play for the last months. Before you had to grind for all the firestorm items you would never get. I stopped playing very fast. Until then I was successful to a certain degree. But that are only map cycles in which I can play elf warriors and win with them. The last map cycle were elf war were not a thing, I tried to play something else. And stopped, because it was frustrating to loose against four Searing Pains, the Viprant Pains or just a fully equipped control wizard. So I did not play for a month. But I would love to play. And I would love to play something else than the stupid elv warriors. But even after grinding a lot, I dont get to the point were it is possible. And I play really a lot, dont miss many leagues and farm enough gold to get whatever I want from the shops. But even then it is not enough.
    For me the game started to get frustrating. There are two possibilities, I guess. One is to stop playing MP. The other is to just quit against every party my elf warriors are not able to face, like neoncat did. I dont like either.
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  15. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    I was thinking a 3 month stall, that's pretty standard.

    No need to limit it to MP-only that I see [see below].

    Seems to fit well with the concept of a wishing well.

    Could do something a bit more open-ended, even, eg, for every [1000g for a legendary] you toss into the well, you get a 10% chance of getting that item each time you would spawn an item of the same rarity tier [up to 5000 gold spent]. The effect lasts until you actually pull the item in question, at which point your wishing well resets, allowing you to apply it to another item [if it's been at least a month since your last pull]. The effect only takes effect if you could pull an item of that level to begin with, meaning SP naturally restricts you to still farming a certain range for an item, while MP does not.

    Then it becomes less a question of 'will I get this item' and more a question of 'which upcoming drop will give it'.

    To make it even more non-pay-to-gain, the well could automatically invest 1000g each month, thus giving all players a chance to adjust their drops, while giving the option to other players to invest more to do so.

    Well, it's a sleep-dep-provided rough concept, anyway, but it seems kinda cool on a thematic level, and both sp and mp players tend to like that sort of influence on play.
    Whether it fits well with Jon's desires or the expectations of more rough-and-dirty-collector-minded individuals, I dunno.

    Sleep now :)
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  16. Durandur2

    Durandur2 Kobold


    I couldn't agree more to this suggestion.
    Its unbelievable, but I was going to suggest almost exactly the same.

    I love this original idea and I was going to suggest the same. However, if programming this requires too much work/time (fast alternative while waiting it) could be adding a shop called "Black Market".
    It would be similar to Randimar's, but costs would be doubled. (It might have restrictions when it becomes available or it might be available only to club owners).
    (At least it would double the hopeless chances of getting some useful legendary one day. Not sitting on gold and cursing everytime you get excited about an epic, but it turns out to be nothing but gold (which equals useless at current chances).
  17. karadoc

    karadoc Hydra

    There are heaps and heaps of good items in this game, and I think it's good that not everyone has exactly the same items; and not everyone uses exactly the same builds. I don't think it's a bad thing that players can't always have the items they think they want.

    Often in games, not getting what you want is what makes the game fun. Forcing people to think about their item choices is better than allowing them to follow a cookie-cutter standard build. And although some items really are very strong (such as The Strongarm), there is no shortage of viable builds without a full set of famous items.
  18. Magus

    Magus Orc Soldier

    There are many good items, sure, but some items are irreplaceable. Let's say someone wants to play a Bless/AT build. Bless exists only on two specific epics. What are they supposed to do if they don't have either?
    Alternately, if someone wants to play burfft, there are a number of reasonable burst staves, but they're all epic+, and the buff priest needs a few legendaries to actually have enough buffs. If they're unfortunate enough to not have any of the viable burst staves, they just can't play the build. Saying "you can't play this exact set of items" can definitely make the metagame more interesting, but saying "you can't play this build at all" doesn't - it just makes players play things they don't like - and some builds really do need that Vibrant Pain, that Blue Destruction, etc.
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  19. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    The obvious answer is to play something else. I don't mean to sound flippant, but that's how loot chase games work. Prior to EttSC there was only one Bless item, and it could never be a random drop in SP, just in MP. Very few SP players could put together a bless-cano build, and I wasn't one. So I played what I had. Others probably quit.
    If you set your sights on a highly specific build, odds are you'll be disappointed. If you just want something reasonably competetive in a style you can enjoy, the odds are actually pretty good. Just having the odds in your favor doesn't guarantee success, and I can certainly empathize with @Obernoob on that point. (Best of luck on getting the gear to get you out of KOB hell.)
    CH is definitely not a game of instant gratification. I wouldn't be sad to see Jon come up with a means (or an improved chance) to get specific items, but I'd expect it to start slow and small. Such things are difficult to undo, and making it too easy would undermine the core of the game.
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  20. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    That's exactly what we're trying to avoid :)
    Boosts have to be based in f2p/equal access to all players, no way to pay to gain.
    This is a pretty strict 'avoid pay to win at all costs' game the devs are trying to run :D

    I personally agree, both from a PvE perspective and a PvP one- even in PvP, not being able to rely on having certain items means your opponents will be much more dynamic to face at your ELO. And I don't personally see the appeal in having to run a specific build because you think it's potent, versus building for a fun build and seeing how it works, either.


    Epics are pretty darn easy to get, in my personal experience. :X

    I can't create cognitive associations to any new acronyms. So, y'know, either detail or link to something, or I'm at a loss :p

    I feel like you're underestimating how easy epics are to get.. or my perspectives on it are somehow off.
    I'm also confused, rarity is based on card selection not quantity, so you're saying you need legendaries for some specific buffs?
    What I'm really seeing here, and from our earlier conversations, is that you greatly value the 'all of one card' items, and dislike the increased rarity that applies.
    I suppose in that particular instance, you could apply a rarity equates to potency element.. but then, that's only assuming items with similar cards don't have other cards you could use.
    It feels more like a lack of willingness to slightly adapt playstyle to me, but then, we already know my perspectives differ notable from yours [as a strict PvE player who focuses more on having fun with the builds than achieving a particular end result], so I may just be missing the value of it :)

    Of course, the two you mentioned just there, are a bit wonky. Atm there aren't any other full-burst items I know of, or items with such freedom of mobility.
    Maybe what you're really wanting, is for Jon to tweak the random shop drop chances so that duplicated-component items like those have a higher droprate?
    Then again, there's the real problem- those are the items you grind and farm for in campaign, hoping to get.
    Making them easier to get anywhere else diminishes PvE :X

    In that, the 'pay to increase drop rate chances and limit to once per month' seems better approach to retain more of the quality of PvE.

    But you totally do ;P

    Less reasonable. If others aren't having fun, I think it's our responsibility- certainly the dev's- to consider how much they can afford to cater to them without diminishing the game.

    Yeah, this.. doesn't feel like that kind of game. It's less about LOLBestBuildEver-PowerGamerWoo, and more about adaptability and versatility in how you approach making builds.

    I hope that's the thing EVERYONE in this thread can agree on :D

    After all we all rather blatantly love this game, so its integrity is what's most important. ;)

    I'm still not seeing any reason why we can't try and cater to PvP-centric players within limits, and, as much as I agree with your sentiments, you're definitely still approaching this from a 'Nope, don't touch the sanctity of the game' viewpoint, Veza.

    Rather, since you're most adamant (in this thread) about it-
    Do YOU have any ideas how to make item-gain even slightly more approachable for PvP players without negatively affecting the game?

    I think if you, in your reluctance, manage to come up with something you can approve of, then it should probably be a slam dunk in being able to convince people to accept it, at least as a first step :)
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015

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