Wall of text about WW and WWE

While I agree that it could use an increased grading, I still am of the opinion that if this spell is taken out of the game or changed significantly it will only increase the value of Sprint and Team Sprint significantly. At what point do you stop nerfing things that have counters? I hear a lot of people say "It completely destroys any tactical advantage that I had!" or "I can't enjoy the game when this card is played!" and those are semi-valid arguments, but a quick reassessment of your new position and change in tactics is not particularity difficult.

Of course, I am not a dev and this is not my decision to make. I leave it in the hands of people way smarter than me.

 

WWE is OP.. warriors struggle to get to the zone before anyone else and then once they get there they are sent all over the board (mostly at the edges) and the wizards can just duck shoot you cause there isn't that many resistant cards out there..

 

The issue with this argument is 2-fold.

1) Comparing sprint team with WWE isnt entirely the right way to go about it. for the sample reason that they feel different.

Sprint team does not remove/disrupt control of your opponent over his party as WWE does. Tactically, the 2 are very similar, feels wise, they are entirely different. People tend to get their panties in a bunch when they felt that their fun is being interfered with and their control removed.

An example for illustrative purposes: people hate playing against decks in MTG that consist of counterspells all day long. They feel like the opponent isn't just having fun himself, he is actively preventing you from having fun. Its one of the reasons that control in MTG has nerfed that sort of decks in recent years.

I'm not saying sort of sentiment is right or logical, just that it exist. As a game made for enjoyment, taking into account irrational influences on enjoyment matters. The priority here is to make a fun game thats also balanced. WWe, even if its balanced (frankly, i've never had that much of a problem with WW even with a melee party), is less fun.

That same sort of "**** this ****" feelings happens less when you see your opponent do something to himself as opposed to him doing something to you. People need to feel that they are in control before they can have fun with a tactical game.

2) Now, disregarding all the bull**** about player psychology, gameplay wise WWE and sprint team are NOT equivalent.

The 2 cards, individually, is equivalent. But their impact on a battle isn't. ST can only be obtained from 2 pieces of equipment. One of those equipment is racial and the other is only available to warriors. That means you limited to a maximum of 2 copies of the cards (no equipment has 2).

Since its on helmets, if you want to have a large number of said card in your party, you would need to be playing one with lots of meele characters. Mobility is important to melee, but still less so than to ranged. You cannot replicate "2-3 mage running around taking potshots and sending you off to a random square whenever you even come close to them" with ST.

Lastly, because its less common. ST is far less reliable/consistent. Because of how common WW cards are is, Mage parties can stack it till kingdom come, they can have each member bring 4 WW cards if they want. You can't do that for ST. Hell, even if they only have 1 member stacked with 4-5 WW effects, thats a higher draw chance than 1/2 cards per deck over 3 decks.

Oh, and ST only appears on 7 items, 2 are rare, 3 are epic and 2 are legendary. WW can be found on common/uncommon. You need a LOT of work to get to the point where you can stack ST.

A single ST and a single WWE/WW do counter each other, but ST based play does not counter WW based play in any way. Nor is it able to achieve anything close to the impact of WW based play.

 

I have not played M:TG in a few years, so I don't know what the current metagame is right now. That being said, historically, counterspell and control decks have always had some counter, usually in the form of fast aggro or some uncounterable options. Currently in the Cardhunter meta game, Sprint, Team!, as well most other team push options counter Whirlwind Enemies pretty hard. If you get baited and then put on a random sqaure, that is not a failure of design.

You're right, Sprint, Team! is much harder to stack than either whirlwind card, but any team push allows you to select the position of your allies. This is much stronger than something that is completely random, whether or not it is only enemies getting pushed around. Again, I think that both of these cards could be upgraded to silver (perhaps gold on Whirlwind Enemies).

I still stand by my opinion that both of these cards need to stay in the game, unchanged in their functionality.

 

On the other hand, ST doesn't disrupt your enemies' formations entirely. WWE is so devastating not because it allows you to get away from them. Its devastating because it turns their prior positioning entirely irrelevant.

Thats my opinion, just wanna put it out there. Its not central to my point about their relative value.

Your argument that the 2 is similar IS reason that the card either needs to nerf to remain as common as it is today, or it needs to be restricted like ST. If you think the 2 are close enough in terms of impact and effectiveness, why allow one to be stacked 5-6 times on a single character with uncommon/common items while the other is severely restricted? There is a L9 rare arcane item that allows gives 1xWW and 2xWWE for a blue token, thats absurd.

Is that 17 dmg bludgeon card is overpowered because of its unmatched dps? No, because whatever power the card had is offset bydeficiencies added through itemization. the same sort of balancing method is applied to most of the most powerful cards in the game. WWE is an abnormally because the same sort of balance mechanism isn't applied in any way whatsoever.

A single card being powerful doesn't make it unbalanced. You don't judge the impact of any given card in a vacuum. That makes no sense. You evaluate it based on the situation in which it could/would be used. You don't compare one card to another, ignore the environment in which they appear in, then base your arguments on the result of your direct comparison.

As it is, ST has nowhere close the impact of WW/WWE. the fact that ST is fine doesn't in any way proof that WWE/WW is. The issue isn't how similar WWE/WW is to ST on a card vs card basis. Its whether it 2 cards have the same magnitude of impact on the game in the situations where they are likely to be found/used.

 

I read all these comments and find it rather weird noone mentioned the potential these card have to trigger all enemy blocks. In campaign vs Goblin for instance I always use these. (or did someone mention this and didnt it read it?)

 

I don't see it in this thread, but this is from beta, just prior to release. It's been mentioned in several later threads.

 

This thread was made back in the day when these cards were very OP, so block triggering was the least of most players concerns at that time. It is a pretty terrible card at this point (got nerfed hard), but yes, it's not bad for drawing out blocks against SP monsters.

 

Haha, the memories of team based formations being completely unreliable.

 

My bad, got linked to this thread via the ingame chat of Card Hunter. Didnt check the date on it...

 

I'm stunned that people think that the whorl wind cards are op. Good luck killing someone when all you got is winds. I wish more people played like that, easier chests for me. Why chuck a wind when you can throw a fireball

 

You should not wish that. It was no fun at all. And throwing Fireballs did not help for the most part, because you need to have line of sight near to the opposing team and resistant hide was a lot played card back than. Especially a tokenless armor with Firestorm on it, that could hit everyone everywhere. And when worst comes to worst, you have line of sight and one of your characters is next to the team. Lonely. And dead to their flying warrior very soon. Or maybe you have a good position. Maybe next turn after another WWE you dont have anymore. I quit playing multiplayer back than after a few days.

 

I liked them, but they actually were OP. The move range was global, so any character affected could end up in any open square on the map. The wind wizard didn't need good luck because he had 2 nimble striking (step 4, damage 6) warriors to sandwich any opponent blown into range. It hit wizard teams the hardest because 2 warriors vs. 1 wiz in melee quickly equals 2 warriors with 2 victory stars. Next WWE, next victim. No victim, next WWE. And don't expect to regain LOS and range with your buff priest for the duration.
Also, this was all pre-AotA, so players didn't have fireball.

 

That is the reason why I did not see any Fireballs back then. I must have stopped playing before AotA.

 

Sorry guys, I replied to the post before noticing that they were talking about the old winds, I thought people where saying the current winds were OP. Thats what i was laughing about as i never seen people play it in like the last year so how can it be close to OP. My Bad....(who links old posts....i started reading from the beginning)