Vibrant Pain.. and how to fix it

I disagree with you Martin.

Anyone who claims that Vibrant Pain is not op because its very hard to get is not understanding the fundamentals of balance and is instead arguing an entirely different point. No one is disputing it is hard to obtain. What people are rightly questioning is why BM are deciding to leave this item overpowered with no reasonable explanation as to why they are doing so. What follows is a natural assumption that they do it to encourage people to buy boxes with real money. This would explain why they have not commented on it despite the huge number of posts discussing it.

The irony of the situation is that obviously a lot of people feel that BM could be making a lot more money if they instead invested a bit more into balancing the game in a dynamic way. So posts like yours can also serve as poison as well.

Cardhunter is commendably fair with its ftp play model, but if they are truly leaving items like this laying around to make money that is a short-sighted mistake imo.

 

Toughness is a one-shot armor that cycles. Are you including Parry as a cycling invul card to be removed as well? I doubt you'll find much support for removing either. Certainly not from me.

At this point I wish I could change my vote from "Slight Nerf" (as in replacing 1 r 2 of the cards) to 'Fine As Is". The strident and overblown (i.e. "God-Like Power") arguments of a few are now devolving into insulting the Devs. Accusing them of using Vibrant Pain to make CH P2W is blatantly unsupportable BS.

So I guess you can rant and stamp your feet, and hold your breath if it makes you happy, and see if the Devs cave in.

I hope they don't.

In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy playing the game.

 

I don't think it's a grand scheme, I think that having a system (card draw) that was superior and dominated the game regardless of Vibrant Pain is proof of this, if the devs really wanted VP to be the "be all - end all" item, card draw wouldn't have been that good to begin with.
I understand the cynical view of some people but I don't think there's any mal-intent involved here, rather different priorities (probably working more on the mobile version right now, I'd guess) than what some of us would have liked.

 

The only one ranting is you. I've provided evidence and logic as to why I believe VP is an issue that should have been corrected months ago, and hasn't, and I've offered a theory as to why - that it exists to provide an incentive for customers to purchase gold chests and or card club membership (myself included); business reasons.

You, on the other, are doing nothing but trying some ad hominem attack on me because you don't like the conclusions I've reached. That's fine. I don't care enough to get in a back and forth with you, but I will say that I believe allowing VP to remain as is in the game is detrimental to the game, and the devs will realize this eventually and alter the item.

 

Although I would love to try this item on my warrior, I am not sure that it grants huge advantage alone. Why? Because you can have 4 Nimble Strikes in regular fight at once and without additional work. 2 from last turn and two which you could draw if you are lucky. Now it is 4x6 = 24 damage, plus a lot of movement of course. But Bejeweled Shortsword with 2 Vicious Thrusts and 2 Powerful Hacks, would give you 2 x 7 + 2 x 11 = 36 damage with two moves (but less chance for step cards). But you get additional move from your move card and can also use Team Runs or WoW or other means to move. Now, how does it compare to real life? When you hit for the first time, you can be blocked or Toughness can work etc. More hits, more consistent damage you do. But hitting through almost any armor can hurt Nimble Strikes damage a lot. So almost only way to overpower Nimble Strikes is to have a priest in party who buffs its damage. Frenzy armors are not that consistent, but they could work sometimes. Main issue with that build is common and easy way to get Blind Rage. That pair looks a bit overpowered - that is true.
Additionally card discarding strategies should work better against Nimble Strikes than Powerful Hacks. Because in the following turn you could be hit much harder from close range than with Nimble Strike.
Parrying Nimble Strike as a Bejeweled Shortsword owner, you also get a huge advantage. So warrior to warrior fights put Vibrant Pain at mixed lightning. Movement helps to get behind opponent, but it not always can be done. If you face a team with priest, you can also be easily rooted in place and killed by strong weapon warrior.

So, I am not so sure if this card is a game breaker. If it threatens 3 wizards deck, then I am fine with that at this point! Does it work really great against other decks? I don't know.

Oh, and there should be "better" cards, people really want to get. That is the point of game and way to earn money for its developers. It sets some goals ahead of you as well. Playing "peasant" builds will get bored sooner or later, when people will work out almost all possible strategies and no new cards come into account.

 

Indeed. How hard it is to get an item is not at all relevant to a discussion about how powerful an item actually is when used.

 

For the record because my name shows up above: I never claimed that VP was not op. Genki just misunderstood (or blatantly misrepresented) my post. For what I really said, please refer to my post on the last page.

 

Martin, with respect, your counter argument to the claim that vp is left in the game for pay to win reasons is that if that was the case you would already have 5 of them. The fact that you don't was your evidence to dispute the claim.

If that is not what you were saying, my apologies, please clarify for my understanding. If on the other hand that is what your saying I think my response is on point and reasonable.

 

It's not paranoia, it's common sense. The devs are not "out to get our money", but they are looking for enough revenue to keep Card Hunter profitable and running. Everyone knows this and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. We all want BM to make as much money as possible and to keep the game running as long as possible, but we would also prefer if it happened in a way that minimized pay-to-win situations and had minimal effect on MP.

Items like Vibrant Pain do not happen by accident. It is clearly an item that was added to have one superior item, the Holy Grail of Card Hunter, that people try to obtain by grinding and buying club memberships. It makes sense, but what me and others have been saying is that we feel it's not the best strategy for Card Hunter to gain more revenue because it alienates hardcore PvP players. While Vibrant Pain might increase short-term revenue, I don't think having items like that is good for the game in the long run.

I'm also pretty sure that Nimble Strike is a silver card just so that Vibrant Pain could be possible (if the card was rated higher, Vibrant Pain could not be a lvl 18 item). I base this theory on the fact that any random newbie can see that Nimble Strike is not supposed to be silver (based on other silver cards), yet we have professional game designers who rated it as silver. Seeing how high quality game Card Hunter is, it cannot be simple incompetence, and since it's not incompetence, it means they chose to rate it less powerful that it actually is. Some might describe this as "paranoia" but to me it's just a simple business decision that I happen to disagree with. Rating Nimble Strike as emerald would be closer to the truth imo.

You mentioned paranoia poisoning the community.. In my opinion what could poison the community is certain individuals taking a stance of defending the devs against anyone who they see as a "hater" by attacking their motives and/or character. I've seen this kind of behavior a lot lately. They see themselves as the good guys trying to help the game when if fact they are doing the exact opposite. Posting negative feedback is a good thing because it tells the developers what the issues are so that they can improve the game. A kind of "just shut your mouth and let the devs handle it" attitude you see here often is really bad for both the game and the community. People should be free to post their ideas without being harassed by self-appointed BM guard dogs. Devs at BM are adults and professionals, and can handle things without the need for these silly forum wars.

I find it ironic that you accuse Genki of misunderstanding or misrepresenting the situation when it is in fact you who did not understand his comments. Simply having the last word will not win you this argument, and falsely accusing Genki of bad behavior is exactly that poison you talked about earlier.

 

@SLG: I answered by PM.

 

The devs aren't prefect or Machiavellian, there just humans trying to make a good game and a decent living. If vibrant pain and nimble strike were as bad as you say then all the top tier players would be playing 3 warriors with 6 vibrant pains, because such an obviously op strategy would be exploited by all and sundry wouldn't it?
Vibrant pain is not balance problem because it does not have a significant statistical effect on the game. Out of an average set of one hundred players, how many have vibrant pain? Out of a random hundred games, how many feature characters with vibrant pain? The answer is basically zero. Unless a strategy, card, or item is actually affecting the game in a significant way, it is not breaking the game. So feel free, prove me wrong, bust out those vibrant pain ownership/usage statistics you've been sitting on.

And now we're talking about me :-D, it's nice to know you read my posts, I don't mind when people mention me by name. I would like to say that I did get a tad hot, sorry if anyone took offense, but please feel free to defend your statements in a reasonable and thoughtful manner. Especially the ones where you both decry vibrant pain as broken and then say it's not a problem and easily countered in others. Now it's understandable you feel a tad under siege, no one would like to see their personal deck creation targeted as the worst thing ever. But you know there's a problem, you've admitted as such. (Yes I've lurked for a while) I encourage free and open discussion, people disagreeing with you is not harassment. Someone posts an argument, and then someone else disagrees, replies and lays their case out logically, that is the essence of debate.

 

You don't need to be perfect to see the insane power of Vibrant Pain. Any kind of basic understanding of Card Hunter game mechanics is more then enough. And since MB devs designed the game, and therefore have probably played it one or twice, they know what the deal is. Oh and did I mention that they are professional game designers?

Nobody here has 6 Vibrant Pains. Everyone I know who has the item, also uses it in their warrior setup because there is really no reason not to.

Sorry to burst your bubble here but I wasn't really talking about you, although during the few days you've been a member, you've managed to create a lot of negative energy here, like starting a personal attack topic (that have now been closed). You are lucky that we have so relaxed moderation here because on the other forums I am a member of, that kind of behavior from a newly joined member would lead to immediate and merciless action. No offence, but if you join a community with an angry an confrontational attitude like that, I don't see you sticking around that long. At least that's how it usually goes on the forums I've been a part of. And people who probably disappear in a month or so.. I don't worry about them too much.

I was mostly talking about some of community veterans who have appointed themselves "The Defenders of Card Hunter", and have attacked other users who have posted negative feedback about the game, because they fail to grasp the difference between feedback and bashing. It's always a shame to see something like that happen and I hope the situation will improve. I'd hate to see this forum turn into a place where we are not allowed to post criticism without being bullied or ridiculed by other users.

"under siege".. ok, this is starting to feel like feeding a troll.

Let me tell you a story. When I finalized control wizards and had a 20-win win-streak with it, the first thing I did was go to chat and say that I had build an "unbeatable" deck by accident and that it needs a nerf. So the first time I announced it was overpowered was when I hadn't even posted it and I was the only person in the world who knew the deck (those exact items) even existed. Since then I have always said it is an op build and I have participated in many discussions where we talk about why it is op and how it should be fixed. I couldn't care less if control wizards were nerfed, because that's exactly what I want to happen. And when it does, I'll probably go build something else, because that's how I play CCG's.

I don't see my control wizards as my "personal deck creation" like it's a piece of fine art or something. It was built on an idea of taking as many traits as possible, and anyone who had the same idea would have built something very similar. It's definitely not a super unique build that I claim ownership over. SPR is probably the only card that doesn't follow the trait idea, but I included that mainly because I had items for it and I wanted to test it, not because it was clever deckbuilding on my part. I was basically just lucky that it fit so well in the build.

I think it's silly and childish to imply that the reason why I started this topic was because of control wizards. I have said this a million times: Vibrant Pain is not the main threat to control wizards. There are many others cards that are much more dangerous, like Immovable. Main problem with Vibrant Pain is that it makes high level MP almost impossible unless you have a way to deal with it, which makes high level MP boring because everyone uses similar builds. This is why I started this topic and this is something you will realize yourself if you ever get close to top-10.

 

Some cognitive dissonance I smell.

So what if If my post count is lower that yours? It makes no difference to my arguments, the fact that you have to resort to that says a lot. And I wouldn't worry about me, I'll be around for quite a while.

 

Uh you realize that those are not contradictions right? You can want a build to be nerfed without it being destroyed—destruction being what happened to draw parties. SLG also isn't saying that your opinions are valueless because you're new; he's noting the clemency of the mods because for a new poster you have been fairly rude. In general, the internet is a better place when people are courteous... it would be nice if we could all be less confrontational

 

SLG... please. Let's all calm down a bit, ok?

Maybe you draw the line between feedback and bashing very far towards feedback, but my personal impression by reading some of the posts that were made was that yes, they were stepping past that line into the territory of bashing and personal attacks.

And no, there are no self-proclaimed "Defenders of Card Hunter".

Of course the developers can handle themselves. However, if the developers stop reading the forum because all they see here are personal attacks against them, does that benefit any of us players? Would that make Card Hunter a better game for any of us?

It's no problem at all to create threads with positive criticism where you dissect the game design, point out where you see problems and suggest things you would change. See my signature. This can be done in a grown-up and friendly way without accusing anybody of mean-spirited motives or calling them incompetent or money grabbers.

 

No one is accusing BM of being money-grabbers. SLG is "accusing" them of trying to make a profit off their game. Which is, you know, not an accusation. We all want them to profit off the game. Basically everyone's overreacting to everything (except Nimble Strike. no one is overreacting to Nimble Strike lolol).

 

I wondered who would be the first to bust out, your rating isn't ummpity-billion and a half, therefore what you say doesn't matter. People play across a very diverse range of ratings, you don't need to be anywhere close to the top ten to play against their builds on a regular basis. Further, building a deck that can handle step attacks isn't super difficult, all you need is blocks and positioning. And some attacks of your own of course. It's not some game breaker, it's just a part of the current milieu, and as you've pointed out it's not even a threat to the current top control builds. Nimble strike may move you four next to an opponent, but it also PUTS you next to to an opponent, every class has a wide range of options at this point, and often quite good ones.

Every deck in Cardhunter has to deal with meta and game realities when building itself. That's kind of the point.

 

That's not what I said and you know it.

It's like this. It's rare to see topics locked around here, because like I said, moderation is very relaxed. Yet you managed to accomplish that with your first post. On the other forums I frequently visit, anyone who would do something like that, would be instantly banned for flaming/trolling. The fact that someone makes a new account just so that they could flame someone else, tells me a lot about their character and whether or not that person would be a good addition to this community. You are of course free to post whatever arguments you have regardless of your post count, but I'm also free to decide whether or not I take those arguments seriously based on your posting history.

This forum has moderators whose job it is to moderate. You are not a moderator here, so why do you feel the need to act like one? If BM thinks that things are getting out of hand, they will send their moderators to do the job. I don't see the point of having non-moderator forum users try to pick a fights with others. If you have a problem with a particular post, just report it, and let the professionals handle it.

You are missing the point again, I'm guessing deliberately. My point was that since you most likely do not own Vibrant Pain, and probably haven't even seen it in action for more than once or twice, you do not fully understand what the issue here is. You really need to get to 1400+ rating, and only then this issue becomes more clear. Vibrant Pain is not an issue to people whose enemies do not use it. While all opinions of course "matter", you need some experience to form an educated opinion on the subject, otherwise you are just looking at the numbers and guessing. Like I've said many times, Nimble Strike is a much better card than what it looks. You really need to experience it to fully understand it. That's what happened to me as well.



I hope this isn't overly dramatic, but I will now stop feeding the troll, so this will be my last response to anything that Mr. YoYoTheAssyrian says.

I will continue to read this topic though. If anyone has any good ideas on how Vibrant Pain should be nerfed, please post them here. I would be interested in seeing some fresh ideas. Thanks.

 

I'm not misunderstanding you, you've just made the same argument twice. My rating has nothing to do with this discussion, but if you really must know, I've been in the 1400+ range for a while, I know how to play the game and I understand the nuances involved, will you actually debate now?

And the moral of that story is to never post while grumpy :-D, in any case the moderators didn't have any problem with the arguments I was making, they had a problem with the tone, tone has since been changed.

ohh it's pretty dramatic, have no fears, but I can't ever recall when someone bemoans flaming, and then resorts to name calling in the same post.

Now I realize that you are taking this personally and I'm sorry for that, but logical fallacies and contradictions in argument ARE a legitimate point of discussion, feel free to point out my own. After all if we avoid common rhetorical traps, the level of debate is raised and everyone benefits.

Back on topic:

Vibrant Pain and nimble strike are not unbalanced and further still leave tons of room for counterplay. TY Ludic for introducing that term here, it's quite a good one. While the inherent advantage of both moving and attacking is great, there are still many other great cards and strategies one can employ to deal with this threat. First and foremost positioning. For example lets say you have a nimble strike and your opponent has a parry, and further we'll assume that cards are visible, since this most clearly will indicate how one should use counter play to gain the advantage in this specific situation. The nimble strike player obviously wants to get behind the parry and attack from the rear, but that doesn't deprive the parry of options, on the contrary, one great example I can think of is to use other characters and chokepoints to prevent the nimble strike character from getting behind the parry, since the nimble striker must also be with range four, unless you're using flank move, see counterplay, there are a whole host of cards that operate within that range. Entagling roots for example, SPR is rng 3 but that would also solve the problem. Or you move another character so that if they do get behind the parry you will be able to retaliate with attacks of your own. Nimble strike does little good if you eat an AoA OB the very next card. Or maybe the nimble strike player just decides to clear the parry and attack from the front anyway, getting a new card and blocking an attack is great unless you draw something terrible and your opponent then has additional attacks to throw your way.

But what if the character with nimble strike is base to base with the parry? Now he obviously will be able to get behind the block for sure now, but keep in mind that you still have options, If the striker does this then you know where's he's going to be next card, he's only got three spaces to choose from, and due to the vagaries of the tactical situation, he probably has only one or two. Or you could place two character in the rear flanking positions, leaving the space directly behind open, which would prevent that period. The point is that we have a decision tree that is enhanced by all the options and counters both players bring to the table. But what if you have no movement cards? well then you're in trouble. But in that case specifically, your opponent managed to bait you into using up your movement while he kept his in reserve, this is a fundamental card hunter strategy that applies to tons of cards and tactics. A lot of cards become really awesome when your opponent can't move, for example, volcano in entirely based around baiting your opponent into moving while you keep yours in reserve. As such, the argument "I used all my move cards and then I died" reflects more on the person using their move cards up than the person exploiting it in the myriad of different ways Cardhunter allows for.

But what about damage? Nimble strike only does 6, which isn't the best in the game by a long shot, but if you buff it in the most optimal fashion (mass frenzy, savage curse, unholy wellspring) that would raise the damage to 16 which is really good. But it will take a player at least three cards and probably a few turns to assemble such a stack of buffs, and again this doesn't diminish the decision tree. Purge is an obvious counter, parry if used correctly, and the ever present encumbrance, though encumbrance has more in common with movement baiting strategies. Further lots of cards attach, just try to cycle off the buffs.

The point is that no matter what the striker does, you ALWAYS have options and counters.

 

Moving this forward, it seems that the 1400-1600 bracket is actually pretty rife with nimble strike / 1 wiz / 2 war teams right now. If you take out the top-echelon rated teams (control wiz), it wouldn't be hard to imagine a scenario where in the absence of card draw or control wizards being able to trait cycle and make their decks smaller while having constant card advantage with sprs, that the nimble strike warriors against become top (as they were generally in the card draw era).

That is why it is vital for nimble strike to be fixed at the same time control wizards are.