The Pizza gal seems very inappropriate

Or go full Melvin and tell him to disregard females and acquire cards.

 

Lessons from Melvin
Or alternatively, #LFM. Think we can get this trending on twitter?

 

Hah, yeah, "Evil GM" story options would be a must.

 

Hers is the one with the skull and crossbones on it. Also, the label that says "KAREN". Are people so blinded by the pinkness they can't see the rest of the box?

 

guys, it's simply about teenage RPG nerds that don't know how to interact with women, nothing more, nothing less. I sure was awkward at 13 or 14 towards 17 year old girls. Perhaps you all were supremely confident but I sure as hell wasn't! I think the writing is spot on and is closely uncomfortable to my own youth (I was that rules lawyer, overbearing, super competitive GM!)

 

I don't think anyone disagrees with your point. The game's story is, in part, about what it's like to be a teenage nerdy boy who is awkward around girls.

The challenges being presented are not about that, they are asking these questions:

1. Is the game presenting superficial negative stereotypes in a way that will be a turn off to some people? Some are saying yes.
2. Is the game presented from a male perspective in a way that will be a turn off to some people? Some are saying yes.

I think those questions are fair to ask. I also think people can disagree about what the answer is. Ultimately I think the OP (and others in the thread) are curious what the devs answer to the above questions might be. So far only one Dev has written in, and she's distanced herself from the story writers and spoken only as a player of the game. I'm curious what the writers would say in answer to the above.

 

LOL, that is not how I interpreted Tess's comments at all!

As for what the writers would say, it would probably be quite emollient even if they are thinking 'get over yourself'.

 

We tried to capture the experience we had as young teenagers growing up with D&D. These are deeply treasured memories. They're also tinged with equally powerful memories of social exclusion, domineering siblings and a deep and enduring terror of the opposite sex. Hopefully we weren't the only people feeling that in 1978 - 1982 (it felt like it sometimes).

For those of you left in any doubt as to who we think the coolest character in the game really is, consider Karen's final words to Melvin in "Attack of the War Monkeys":

"I guess we now know where the ten foot pole disappeared to. Removing it will make sitting more comfortable, Melvin. Ponder this if you will. There's no point in having an intelligence of 18, if you have a wisdom of 3."

 

Well I guess you are in the minority. When one has a socially ******ed friend like gary, you HELP HIM and not sitting there watching him pretending to pump iron. That's what friends are for. The player doesnt have the option because s/he is assumed to be socially awkward too and that's insulting.

 

Rephikul... they weren't trying to capture how they felt in the player, they were capturing how they felt IN GARY. The player does nothing, he is just an observer, Gary's internal monologue target made flesh.

 

Really? Are you really "insulted" by a video game?

 

Yes, really. Gary and Melvin and Mom and to a lesser extent Karen are all stereotypes of the sort that discourage women from playing these sorts of games. There have been what, 3 women participating in this thread? And one of them is a dev. (I'd love to see gender stats for forum accounts. Also numbers for how many premium figures of each gender are being used.)

Karen is the best of them, but even there her life seems to revolve around Gary, especially (SPOILER) after she loses her job(/SPOILER). Obviously this is because Gary is the center of the story, but that was a deliberate choice made by the devs. If Karen was the one to introduce us to the game and teach us the rules, the meta-story would be totally different, even if all the chars had the same personalities. And, in my opinion, that game would appeal to a far wider audience. But the devs felt their potential players would relate more easily to Gary, and that's what I find (a tiny bit) offensive. I'm supposed to be Gary's friend, but I just don't like him. He's not a bad person, but there's nothing, not a single thing, that I admire about him. (Melvin, who is a bad person, at least seems to have a better work ethic than Gary or Karen.)

There is a lot of sexism and outright misogyny in the gaming industry and fandom, and continuing to use these stereotypes is part of the problem. I'm not saying CH is horribly sexist or anything, it's actually much better than most RPGs in this regard. I'm currently playing 3 all female parties because I can (also because I just plain like strong female chars). In comparison, last night I tried a turn-based tactical RPG game where all my chars had to be male, and you hire cheerleaders to give them bonuses between waves. Oy.

 

I guess. I find that there are more important issues by which to be "insulted," such as the fact that around 15 people worldwide die of hunger every minute. Stereotyping, particularly of the relatively benign variety exhibited in Card Hunter, isn't all that deplorable in the grand scheme of things.

 

I wouldnt mind a female that dish the game constantly at first but when she's somehow dragged into actually find it enjoyable. More like, get addicted. All hail the tsundere queen.

 

This is a very reasonable response. I think you succeeded. The downside of your success is that you *may* have created a game that has a strong teenage-boy perspective, and one, therefore, that is a turn-off for some people. I'm not saying you should change it or that it is a problem, just facilitating what I think is a valuable and interesting conversation.

Now, if you were going to change it, I might think about reducing some of the angst in the early story. The initial experience for people is incredibly important, and I think the initial story is possibly it's most stereotypical. I don't know that all of that awkwardness is totally necessary right then, and might be spread out or handled with more delicacy. I think it's hard to see how/why Karen would actually take an interest in Gary given how awkward (and deceptive) he is. I think figuring out and clarifying their early relationship, in a way that is relatable, might help.

I think, conversely, you could also just say you're not going to change it. There is nothing wrong with making a game by boys for boys. That's totally artistically fine. It may be a turn off to girls, but maybe you're ok with that.

More than anything, I want all game devs to at least think about these issues and have a genuine response when asked. You've started to do that, and I appreciate it. Hopefully the conversation continues.

 

My wife happens to love the color pink. Is it because she is a female? I have no idea. Could be because she happens to like that color and it could be because society tends to make stuff for girls pink.

Her deck box for Magic the Gathering is Pink with pokemon all over it. So? She likes Pink and Pokemon. I guess it is not a unicorn, but she does happen to like those as well.

Karen doesn't represent all girls in gaming. Karen represent Karen. As a character. She was not made to champion female gamers.

Thats my take on the situation.

 

What the hell happened to this society, where a story of a typical DND dweeb being awkward around women is considered sexism against women...?

The campaign isn't sexist against men women or anything else far off and in between.

They are all equally ultra-stereotypical.
And God bless them for it.

 

Rhetorical question I'm sure, but I think the divisiveness of issues like this comes more from confusion of terms than actual disagreement. Unequal treatment of women is certainly still prevalent in society. Women's wages are still lower than men's wages for the same job. The factors that contribute to this are many and complicated, but when people start looking into they find that culture and cultural stereotypes are an important factor.

Video games are culture, a bigger and bigger part of our culture. If video games contribute towards inequality (in any form), we should think about why and how. What is being asked here, among other things, is whether the stereotypes and male-perspective of this story contribute towards inequality. People disagree about whether this is so or not, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask.

I don't think the community has come to an agreement about whether the game is "considered" sexist. I think we're talking about it. I also think it is something that people can reasonably disagree about.

As linked one page back: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GiveGeeksAChance