The Legend of Dev Diary: The Diary Begins

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Sir Knight, Jul 28, 2011.

  1. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    Yes, yes, YES! In one move, Card Hunter has claimed its domain in strategy-space. I don't even need to talk about the implications of the "equipment-decides-card-loadout" thing: you can see them for yourself ("Oh, look, that's how 'Dropped Guard' gets into your deck"). What matters to me is that this game now has a reason to exist:

    As they said, they could have just modified someone else's ruleset. In that case, you would be playing a variant of a published game, using ways of thinking that you already developed. New graphics, (almost-) same strategy. It's like going from Warcraft to StarCraft.

    However, they instead made something that is still a deck-building game, but with an "equipment" mechanic that fundamentally changes the "shape" of your building blocks. It's like going from Tetris to Dr. Mario: a veteran may find a comfortable sense of familiarity, but everybody has to think in a new way. As such, each game has its own place.

    Card Hunter has found its place, and anything from here on out is the icing on the cake.

    Edited P.S.: By the way, I never intended "The Diary Begins" to be the title for every dev diary post for all time. Now that we've done 5 of the things, shall someone start a new thread for when #6 comes out? I would encourage this.

    P.S. to edited P.S.: I see the phrase "card suite" in the graphic for this "equipment cluster" idea, and I think it is an awesome one.
    secran likes this.
  2. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    I think you can edit the title of the thread, not sure though.

    I dont know how i feel about this equipment system. When i first read it i kinda groaned to be honest. Dont get me wrong, the idea and concept is great. But by equipping a sword i get 2-3 attack cards and 1 backfire card, that doesnt spell good odds for the player i dont think. Thats a 25%-33% chance that by equipping something your card shoots you in the foot. I dont quite like those odds while enemies are attacking you (possibly without backfire cards) and causing much havoc to the players.

    Maybe im just criticizing the card effects without full knowledge on the deck system. For all i know you might not draw the backfire cards without drawing the attack ones first, or perhaps they naturally get pushed toward the bottom of the deck. Maybe they dont even show up unless an enemy uses a card that causes them to get dropped in your hand or activated.

    This confuses me and i hope to learn more.

    Edit: Quite possible the backfire cards only show up for higher teir cards at all, or that some of them are possibly not that bad and they take up space in your hand making you use discard cards or abilities, or possibly it might be typical to get like 10-20 cards in total from equipping something. just something i thought about, there is so much to speculate!! AHHHHHH!!!
  3. secran

    secran Mushroom Warrior

    Wow. You guys just knocked the ball out of the park with this idea. My brain is in overdrive about all the possibilities this could bode.

    Makes me wonder about trading between players now, as I assume you trade the equipment, and the cards there in are attached. Otherwise you'd be able to hand out 'crap pinatas' under the guise of being epic lootz.

    Also, I would assume that the inclusion of backfire cards is dependent on the item, and how good it is. So in theory a masterwork broadsword of hackity-slash may have some really powerful attacks and three backfires, or it may only have one really bad one? Where as a poorly crafted rusty shiv (it's actually a spoon) may have 2 backfires (but they aren't too brutal to the user), and a few low powered attacks (3-4).

    So very interesting. ^_^
  4. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    Yes, but I was suggesting that someone start a new thread when diary #6 comes out. Maybe call this one the "Diaries 1-5" thread, then start a new "Diaries 6-10" thread.

    Just an idea.
    I hope there are few, if any, "backfire cards." In an ideal world, the "Wha?! Why would I want that card?!" reaction to "Dropped Guard" and "Cowardly" would be negated when we realize their strategic uses. They may be harder to use, but not actually punishing. Thus, it wouldn't be "25%-33% of your whole deck is pain," but rather "25%-33% is stuff that forces you to be more strategic than you were expecting."

    In other words: the average players may refuse to think about "Dropped Guard" strategy, and refuse to put it in a deck. Now, if it's in a "card suite" they like, they have to learn. And so the game is more awesome.
    Again, I hope they aren't really "backfiring." But if they are, I would hope "Masterwork Broadsword of Hackity-Slash" has zero backfires, while "It's Actually a Spoon" has backfires. As in, I don't want to be punished more if my sword is better.
  5. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    Ah i see, but theres nothing wrong with consolidating all the converstaions of the dev diaries to the same thread. Makes things easy in the long run and if it becomes an issue of the thread jumping all over the place we can just ask jon to sticky it since its our most popular conversation topic as of right now.

    But back on topic, only thing that worries me about these "Backfire Cards" (guess they are the unofficial name as of now) is the amount of them stacking in your deck would complicate strategy. When playing competitively you cant just instinctively know when your enemy is gona pull a card that unequips all of his items and leaves him vulnerable. Unless the cards are drawn at the same rate every time (you know how many cards are in your opponets deck and just say for sake of arguement it goes to the bottom, you count cards till he draws the backfire). Not to mention that i think this might turn some people off the game if these "Backfire Cards" are drawn too often.
  6. secran

    secran Mushroom Warrior

    I'm certain there are ways to get rid of backfires outside of playing them. Probably creatures that cause discard on attack, or special attacks that get stronger if you discard cards to fuel them. And for all we know the backfires could end up having somewhat advantageous effects (like dropped guard), just not as good as the 'real' cards. We shall see!
  7. Roshirai

    Roshirai Goblin Champion

    This is mostly a philosophical debate at this point. I think you can make a good game that works either way: most equipment provides both good abilities and Backfires, or equipment starts out having Backfires, but they rapidly disappear as the equipment improves. Or, hell, some other variation thereof.

    As far as the path that Blue Manchu will take, I think the RPS interview is instructive here...
    Delving right into Pure Speculation mode, I imagine equipment will have something like, say, a "Gold Value" which doubles as what the item would cost in soft attention currency, as well as how many "points" the item counts as when building a set of equipment for competitive multiplayer. Items with low Gold Values could either be on the weak side, or have Backfires compensating for their abilities. High Gold Value items could either be useful and Backfire-free, or very powerful with a Backfire or two compensating.

    Thus, for the single-player side of the game, where the Gold Value you'd be allowed to take into battle is probably unlimited, you'd probably just end up steadily amassing a collection of equipment that straight up improves your abilities and increases your strategic options: fewer backfires, more damage, big money, big prizes! For multi-player, however, since your party's Gold Value would somehow be capped, you'd have to take into consideration all of the equipment in the game and build your "deck" accordingly. Thus, multi-player wouldn't be a game about simply equipping your Diamond Chainmail and Vorpal Longsword for the win: you'd hit your Gold Value cap. Instead, you'd have to creatively choose which equipment to bring along from the entire spectrum of Gold Values. Maybe the super-cheap Unwieldy Harpoon would find a place in your deck alongside some expensive defensive equipment!

    As an aside, I could see there being room for both "Pauper" (rather low maximum Gold Value) and "Royal" (no maximum Gold Value) competitive game modes, for those so inclined. I'd personally be into "Pauper" play at least: BATTLE OF THE RUSTY SWORDS!
  8. Dorian

    Dorian Mushroom Warrior

    A data-point to consider: my current "playtest party" -- 3 decks -- contain 31%, 8% and 0% "backfire cards," respectively. (And in the one with 31%, I chose items whose backfire cards weren't as harmful to the deck's function.) Certainly there are plenty of items that don't contain backfire cards, and monsters *do* have backfire cards in their decks!

    I find such cards a very interesting part of deck-building.
    secran and SurgeonFish like this.
  9. Rising Zan

    Rising Zan Mushroom Warrior

    Here is a question i still have about the deck building diary, so can armor and accesories only get cards out of your deck or do they have added bonuses that come with them?
  10. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    That makes me feel much better!

    Also, i urge you to call them Backfire cards! Just reference me in the credits ;)
  11. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Hey all, I certainly can see why you might be worried about this deck building system. As I tried to point out in the diary, it is an attempt to do something quite different. All such attempts are inherently more risky than copying a model that is already known to work.

    The Magic mana system, for example, is an incredibly awesome piece of design and has rightly been used in many other similar games. Trying something quite different like this is definitely setting ourselves up for problems - but we really wanted to take that risk and try to create some new challenges for players (as well as ourselves).

    Drawbacks definitely don't seem like they would be fun... and a deck full of them wouldn't be. But used carefully and sparingly, I think they can add a lot of spice to the game. If nothing else, it's fun when your opponent draws them!

    I will focus next week's diary on this system - go into how we use it in more detail and try to explain why we think it is interesting and fun.
  12. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    Dear, sweet, mushroom-flavoured dev, that is a good chunk of why I was so enthusiastic over it. Downsides! Downsides in a strategy game! That you actually have to incorporate into your strategy! Hook me up with those fumbles, man!
    Jon likes this.
  13. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    This is starting to worry me. I'm the poisonous bitter type of fungus, not the sort that is delicious friend up in a butter with a little garlic and some finely chopped fresh herbs sprinkled over the top.
  14. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    Prove it.
  15. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    No offense but i wouldnt eat Jon, you dont know where hes been
  16. Dorian

    Dorian Mushroom Warrior

    He's probably poisonous, like everything else in Australia.
  17. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    Hes from Australia?! Purge the unclean!!
  18. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    So . . . what are we saying here? Send Dorian the otyugh in to check on the cleanliness of the fungal growth? This is getting to be a terribly tangled metaphor.
  19. secran

    secran Mushroom Warrior

    Jon, if you post another Dev diary, they will probably stop... Just sayin'...
  20. Piratecat

    Piratecat Blue Manchu

    This isn't really dev diary related, but I'll mention it. Dorian and I have played about five hours in the last few days, with me playing heroes and Dorian controlling monsters. Other than occasionally wanting to kick Dorian right in the zombies* -- seriously, I died an exceptionally embarrassing death against shambling undead because his strategy was simply better than my own -- I wish to report that it was a tremendous amount of fun. Lots of things need tuning, lots of things will change, there's only placeholder art in, there are bugs, but dang. When I'm playing on a Saturday night because I want to and not because I'm working, that's a good sign.

    * That's a euphemism. Although if I HAD kicked him in the zombies, I probably wouldn't have died like a punk. Stupid zombies.

Share This Page