The Legend of Dev Diary: The Diary Begins

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Sir Knight, Jul 28, 2011.

  1. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Diagonal movement is a thorny issue for any grid based game. You basically have three options, all of which are unappealing in some way. Make it cost two and therefore over-cost it, make it cost one, thereby under-costing it or try for some more complex system to better approximate it's real cost. We actually started with the latter option - you pay one for the first diagonal, two for the second, etc. In the end though, we decided the extra complexity and fiddling around wasn't worth it. I think it has been a change for the better.
    secran likes this.
  2. skip_intro

    skip_intro Ogre

    I probably am. This is my thought:


    Three moves, on the blue 'allowed' dots. Straight across the front of Brer Kobold. Then you get your free two or three squares movement and you could be away in the distance before Brer Kobold gets a swing. Even worse you could get an attack as you pass, potentially, if you can pivot.



    If the 'Stop On Contact' applies, the red dots should put an end to your movement. You get your blow(s) in, but you get counter-attacked as you're pinned.



    I'm still thinking I could do this, bash the Kobold and not be counter-attacked in the same turn. If it's 'free move' then play cards, I could move into position, use an attack card, then a movement card to withdraw out of range, if Kobolds only move 1 or 2 squares.
    SurgeonFish and secran like this.
  3. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    I really should have mentioned in the blog that there are other elements to a race than just their default move card. Elves may get better movement, but that's certainly not the end of the story. And, yes, Scamper is an amazing card.
    SurgeonFish and secran like this.
  4. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    As for the "opportunity attacks" you guys are talking about, there is something sort of like that in the game, but like everything else, it works through cards. I will explain more soon.
    SurgeonFish and secran like this.
  5. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    I appreciate the preceding several Jon-posts. On the subject of appreciation, I notice that secran is on a "like" spree. Because of the linguistic similarity between "liking" and "licking," I now have a mental picture of secran slurping the last page of posts. (At least there are mushrooms to improve flavor.)

    And skip_intro, thank you for providing graphics. Let me state:
    My understanding is that this is possible for Scamper, but impossible for Escaping Run. The key is that the blue dots do not indicate "you may step here DURING your move," but rather "you may END your move here." Observe that you could arc around to the lower right and still end on dot 2 or dot 3, without going through dot 1 to get there. This is consistent with the idea that a single step adjacent to the Kobold ends your move in Escaping Run. Also consistent is the fact that the tile diagonally above dot 2 (directly above in this isometric view) is not a viable target: there is no path which would get you to this location without stepping adjacent to the Kobold first.

    Thus, the chart/rules can be interpreted in two possible ways, but I think this way is simpler and more effective.

    Also, your font is awesome.
    SurgeonFish likes this.
  6. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    *licks Sir Knight*
  7. skip_intro

    skip_intro Ogre

    Sir Knight.

    I think we're at the same point on the page. I did think that a jink diagonally right is the first move to get you to 2 or jink right, forward, jink left to get you to 3.

    Scamper plus Escaping Run for the win, though, especially if there's a 'play attack as interrupt if you become adjacent to enemy'. Run, Hack/Slash, Run Away! Dungeon Drive-By... :eek:

    The Fonts are free ones from BlamBot, kudos to them for excellent design.
  8. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    And all was well.
  9. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    You guys are right. The blue dots are where you can end up, not where you traverse while you move. That's pretty much how the game previews them for you when you mouse over a move card so I guess I've got very used to reading them that way, but I can see how it would be confusing.
  10. Rising Zan

    Rising Zan Mushroom Warrior

    What I want to know is how are they going to balance out the other races? I mean from the 3rd developer's diary this is the first mention of races actually being more than just being cosmetic with default movement cards, and it seems Elves have the advantage so far. So how will they balance this out? With HP perhaps?
  11. skip_intro

    skip_intro Ogre

    And will it differentiate between Scamper and Escaping Run as in our example to show if you can cross a ZoC to mitigate confusion for the likes of me? :confused:
  12. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    Along a similar lines, im curious as to why a deck of default movement. When i read that 2 things came to mind, that you would ither allow minimal customization to the movement deck so we can use interesting and rewarding cards as movement, and if that wasnt the case then why not just give every character basic movement with cards that provide interesting mechanics to encourage being put in the deck for additional movement.
  13. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    Hey, this could probably be implemented by something like the examples you drew. If the "dots" are literally what appears in the game (and I think they should be, as they are attractive and simple), then color-coding would explain much. Something like green for "valid endpoint of move," blue for "valid endpoint, but you're stopping because of the Kobold," maybe red for "valid endpoint, but this is dangerous terrain and will hurt you" or whatever else is possible.

    I would have said red for the Kobold-case, but red is mentally reserved for "warning, don't go here" things.
    I'm probably just misreading again, but are you under the impression that there is a movement deck? There isn't.

    As to encouraging customization, maybe the default movement card could pop up only when your normal draw does not give a movement card. Or maybe you have one and exactly one default card per game, and it stays there (ignoring all discard rules) until you use it.
  14. skip_intro

    skip_intro Ogre

    From that quote, I think you drop an unused Default Movement Card (DefMov) at the end of turn and you get a new DefMov along with the two normal draws at the start of the next turn.
  15. Mathulus

    Mathulus Kobold

    To me, a system where diagonal movement cost 1.5 dosen't sound to complex (It isn't hard math and the computer takes care of that anyways). And its pretty close to reality. Some movement cards culd still have an ability that make diagonal movement cost 1.

    Im curous on yor take on what the drawbacks are in that kind of system.
  16. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    It's certainly not unworkable and it is pretty much the system we had to start with. The drawback is just that it makes understanding how far you can move (and shoot) a little more complicated. There are also issues to do with area of effect attacks and so on.

    Overall, I wouldn't say it's clear which system is better - there are ups and downs to both. In the end, we usually choose simplicity where there isn't a compelling reason to go for something more complex.
  17. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Regarding default move cards - there is no actual deck that you draw them from. However, you can imagine there's a big pile of default move cards sitting there. Each turn you draw one of them. There are so many of them you never run out.

    Once you've drawn it, it's exactly like any other card except that should you ever discard it, it magically disappears (or goes back into the big imaginary pile).

    It sounds more complex than it is. When you are playing, it just means you magically always draw a card of that type each turn. Simple, really.
  18. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Getting tired of entering individual messages, so I'll just try answering a bunch of things at once :)

    • The move dots do show up pretty much like that in game, though we use a different highlighting system that is a bit more attractive to look at. We don't colour code them to show where you have to stop due to moving adjacent to enemies, though that is a good idea.
    • Providing variety to the default move cards is a good idea and something I can see us expanding to. I don't think it's necessary at this stage - there is plenty of variety to regular deck building as you will see when we get to it.
    • Finally - default move cards are not the only things race determines. There will definitely be other good reasons to play dwarves!
    SurgeonFish likes this.
  19. Mathulus

    Mathulus Kobold

    Thats a good philosophy to have.

    But (for shooting at least) I have a harder time with 1 (or 2) on diagonal systems, because units that are closer can be out of range at the same time as units further away can be in range. The "every other" thing you had in your old design does seem to add complexity though.

    If it isnt too much trouble, I wuld like to know where it becomes a problem with area of effects? Im making a game myself that uses 1.5 on diagonals when you count distances, and I haven't had a problem so far.
  20. secran

    secran Mushroom Warrior

    Mushrooms, blech. But seriously, I hadn't realized likes were visible one, and two I do like the fact that he is responding to our comments. As stated, transparency = win. ^_^

    As for racial differences, it would be interesting to see combat cards that are racial restricted "Kneecapping shot" for dwarves, etc.

    Movement cost makes sense, considering it's supposed to be more like a board games take on an rpg as opposed to an out and out rpg (known for complex rules and sqwabbles there in related).

    Thanks for taking the time to respond to us Jon!

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