[SUGGESTION] - Make the Trogg levels less of a miserable chore.

The point sir knight that you seem to miss, is that I can in fact slaughter this mission without even trying, though my methods are of the power up kind, I have the capacity to use several other methods.

The point you are missing is that when I first got here, to this mission, I literally had to regrind every mission available to me, to that point, twice, to have the gear necessary to beat these stages, and other players have gotten out of the woodwork as well and mentioned the two missions, mind you the two missions that I believe the game becomes overly punishing. This is the difference here, the term punishing mechanics, versus hard mechanics.

Speaking from a teaching point, allow me to tell you the difference between hard, and punishing.

For hard, the game gives you approximately the tools you need to deal with the situation gotten to. To point out, in the first punishing mission where we encounter crude plates, the enemy has probably 3 blue power tokens worth of gear, and a smaller deck then you do. Could you get cards to match these cards up to that point? With luck yes. But this punishes the new player because they are encountering cards and mechanics, they simply don't have access to yet. I also might add that in both your examples you were in fact given a bit of a lucky scenario where the enemy had two cards, not shown to you, and did not move off of the acid. On another note, I only had an acid block available until after my second regrind, where I had one acid spray available. You drawing that as early as you did allowed your victory. Otherwise your setup would have ended in a likely more disasterous way.

In the second set of punishing encounters we have into the core, or which ever has the geomancers who can use cards such as volcano, and cave in, as well as lava spots. These enemies are using equipment with approximate power to the bronze power tokens, something you can't access yet, and the movement cards needed to guarantee yourself a way to get to them is more then just a little frustrating. Especially sense they have the nasty habit of having enough move cards to simply run away.

Now I say punishing with good reason. In both these missions the enemy takes advantage of highly powerful cards that not only did you not necessarily get counters for, they are cards you probably have not even seen exist yet. This takes place in other missions but in these two missions they are highly prevelant.

In other missions the enemies had powerful cards true enough, but the synergy between set up locations, and what the cards actually do in these two missions change the way these two missions interact with the player who encounters it for the first time. IE most players do not actually have the tools to deal with these missions. I myself only beat the geomancer area using only my wizard, since moving my characters off of the rocky cave in area was almost suicide, and I lacked the cards (Yes I do in fact know about floating cards) to get off of them and effectively go after the geomancers who were too far away as it was. My wizard had fire cards though that could hit everything. And I had armor cards, and they seemed to not. This was how I won.

Not everyone has that option though.

Hard is one thing. These two particular missions are more punishing then hard because the enemies to that point did not quite have the high level of cards that to that point, and all of a sudden they have cards most players literally lack any of the resources to effectively deal with.

Just because you can deal, and just because I can deal, does not make the level less punishing.

 

(Sigh.)

You changed the goalposts yet again.

I've found it amazing since the start that you ever used the word "troll." After that point, for literally every post of mine, I addressed your concerns and you changed the goalposts on me. I even had a remarkable run in the game that allowed me to demonstrate the concepts (which you refused to do in your own head) using your own criteria, and you changed the goalposts on me. (Remember your accusation that I wouldn't do these techniques at my level? Suddenly we're not talking about that.) And every time, you pretended that I didn't understand the suffering that hard games can cause and accused me of having a problem, i.e., I'm the one with the problem instead of the person trying to harm me.

The last time I humored a troll was in middle school. I'll just go back to skimming.

 

Knight, a part of your problem when discussing with me, at least I think, is that you assume I am struggling with it right now. My want for the from behind attack screen shot does not come from anything else then to point out that it is not a reliable strategy. I actually mention this in my first few posts.

I have addressed that you have shown me an example of using your strategy. Now might I ask what you feel you have said I myself have yet to address?

I can beat this mission with ease. I have stated so repeatedly. I have also stated that I had to spend 2 full days worth of regrinding to get the gear I used to beat this mission using similar strategies.

I also stated early in my posts that this as well as the geomancer levels were punishing levels. Levels that punish a player if they lack the gear. A huge part of your problem in this as well as other posts in the forum is you believe the player already has the gear needed. And I have repeatedly emphasized that this is not always true.

Then you treat me as though I have not addressed your points and you have addressed mine. The truth of the matter is you have only addressed one of my several major points.

Here I'll list them.

Hitting the trogs from behind in this level specifically in not reliable advice. Just because it can be done does not mean it is a reliable enough strategy for the player to actively attempt.

The players struggling with this level are new players. Not players like you and me. I have personal experience though needing to grind for two full days to get the gear I needed simply to pass this level. This becomes a further problem because I can only repeat said missions once per day. I doubt I am in a rare situation here.

The experienced players are actively dismissing punishing levels because of the ease of the levels when we have the appropriate gear. This level as well as the levels with the geomancers are not just hard, they are punishing if you are missing the gear needed.

All these points I have made prior to the post before this one.

The beauty off annonimity on the internet is you don't have to care what I say when I say these levels specifically are punishing. You can choose not to believe me which seems to be your end game anyway.

Or you can choose to re evaluate the sheer power of their gear compared to the power of a new player. As well as re evaluate just how effective from behind is with this specific stage.

I have referred to them as punishing, I have referred to lacking gear and the regrinding, and I have referred to the from behind strategy not being reliable all in previous posts. I have not changed the goals with every post. You just haven't touched on them yet. One simple solution would be to allow more then one replay a day and players might feel a little less punished, but right now, a player can be unequipped their first day, not have the gear they need or worse accidentally sold it not realizing their mistake and not be able to advance for days.

This becomes no longer a question of the game being fair and hard but it becomes unfair and punishing.

 

Of course now that you have actively called me troll you do show your dismisiveness of difficulty and levels that are punishing versus just hard.

So its going to be hard for me to accept that you have any concern for when levels are truly unfair because clearly you find the punishing levels too easy because you already have the gear and thus completely dismiss a new player who lacks the gear and you are just going to tell them you already have it and that they can already do it, even though they can not.

I called the attack from behind advice for this level a troll comment, not because attacking them from behind ignores armor is not a true statement, it is. Simply put though the opportunity to use it in this level does not present itself often enough to call it viable tactical advice. It simply does not work often or well enough in this stage to say a player can do that to win.

You call me a troll because... what I find two particular groups of levels punishing and you think I'm dismissing you? I assure you I have not. Here want me to go beat the level with my setup that makes it a push over for me to prove I can show how easy it is to? Is that what you want for me to prove I'm not just trolling you?

 

I think that this game definitely favors those who have experience with turn-based tactical games.
Personally, turn-based tactics is one of my favorite game genres (XCOM, Silent Storm, Battletech, Jagged Alliance, Disgaea, Fallout... I even had a Neo Geo Pocket Color to play Faselei!), so I came to Card Hunter with a bit of a background in the genre and the mindset necessary to enjoy the challenge. As such, I really didn't hit any frustrations until much further into the game (WAR MONKEYS). The assumption is always that "if what you're doing isn't working, you're probably supposed to try something else." I'm not sure it's really so much of a hardcore vs casual mindset as it is simply requiring multiple levels of flexibility (not just in overall tactics, but in gear builds and general playstyle).

Now, all of that having been said: If you don't have a background or a deep love for turn-based tactical games, I can absolutely see where this game could have problems. Not only do you have the issue of near-infinite self-customization, but you have the randomness of the card draws and the dice: you can have the perfect build and strategy in place for a map and still end up losing to the gods of the random-number generator either in a lucky crit, an unlucky block, or just a bad hand on any given draw.

I think that the campaign probably needs some tweaks - or possibly multiple difficulty settings.
While the campaign is something I've enjoyed so far, I'm not sure it's something that has global appeal. :/

 

I've actually suggested this. I wonder if the devs will consider it.

 

As someone who's played and beaten most of the major SRPGs from Shining Force to FF:T to Disgaea to XCom, I still find Card Hunter to be too much for me, and I think it's because of the RNG god. Most SRPGs have luck in whether or not you hit, and if you crit, but they notably do not have luck when it comes to whether or not you can even attempt to attack, or cast a spell, or what spells you can cast. It's hard to strategize when you don't even know what attacks or abilities you'll have access to. I often find myself maneuvering one turn for what I hope I'll get next turn... and then I don't.

That would help. I think it's too hardcore at this point for a mass audience. If that's what they're going for, that's fine. For me, Troggs + Geomancers = no thanks, on to a new game. I mean, hey, I did already spend ten actual dollars, so I'm not a total loss, but it did only take me a week or two to be done with the game.

 

If players who have finished more than 1/3 of the game are still "new players", maybe the early levels are too easy. Remember, BM is trying to sell monthly memberships for this game; they probably don't want a game so easy that casual players can finish the campaign in a couple days.

 

Kalin, I made it to the troggs on my first day within 5 hours. This is practically the first level out of the "tutorial".

If that's not a new enough player for you I honestly don't know what is.

 

As for monthly subscription this is a game where you will want to hunt more gear. 1 extra item per mission accomplished is a very VERY nice perk for gathering more gear, Not to mention there is no way to tell what kind of new things they will add. The trogg area by the way is actually more of an eighth of the way through the planned game.

Oh and map customization for your own personal custom games.

 

I didn't find the Trog levels very difficult (beat them all no death, no grinding), and I definitely consider myself a casual player.

Around level seven is when you start needing to learn some of the meta-game. For example, specialized characters are almost always better than generalists. Trogs like to be two squares away (they'll often move away from someone next to them). You often will need to change a character's focus (or even use one from a different class). A big one is understanding how you can base tactics on your hand (and strategy on your deck). Also, knowing the best time to play cards is fundamental. It can be rough when you first get there.

I do love the idea of difficulty settings (although I would fold that into Challenges). That said, I'm not sure how you could make the Campaign any easier without making the game boring.

 

...or making it just easier to farm in general. Difficulty settings would then have to tweak the power of the reward items or something to compensate, yet doing so just makes the game harder for the easy setting. And I tally agree with the possibility of inadvertently trivializing the campaign this way.

 

My suggestion here was to have an Easy level that removes 30% of the enemy hit-points and 50% of the loot. That way players who did it twice would get the same loot on average, and twice the playing experience.

 

But this doesn't address the fact that the player is getting 50% of the power (loot) for passing the level and thus may not have enough options to beat the following levels. There are likely solutions and other problems, but this jumps out at me an an initial issue. If you are designing for casual, they still need to be able to get through the campaign. I felt limited with my gear starting out, I think it would feel very limiting to a new player if they only received half the gear.

 

I addressed when I suggested that the player should play it twice, thereby getting full loot AND the extra practice that they will need to develop their skills. The stronger players (maybe just more experienced with this type of game) will push on to the next campaign.

You should *always* feel limited by gear - that's the very point of the game! (At least unless you prefer to have a ton of overpowered equipment and steamroll it.)

Okay, I play roguelikes so my attitude leans towards 'make me find every edge I can to win with my limited resources' and I like that Card Hunter seems to tend that way. I know the attitude is not universal.

 

From my perspective, you're either lying or wrong, but the actual answer is probably that you got lucky. The more I think about it, the more this is the problem with Card Hunter. I'm not sure how you balance a mission when you've got RNG baked into every aspect of the game, and two people can come away with completely different impressions of a level.

Dark Souls is hard, but Dark Souls is fair. If I go into an area and die, it's because I wasn't cautious enough, or because I dropped my guard after two attacks from the boss when I should have waited for a third, or because I forgot about that ledge behind me, and so on. Nothing is random, everything will play out precisely the same way as before if I change nothing, and as such, I can learn from my mistakes.

Card Hunter is hard, but Card Hunter is unfair. If I go into an area and die, half of the time the lesson is that I should have gotten luckier. Whoopdee-freaking-doo. That's not fun, it's frustrating. Yeah, I can adjust my strategy and adjust my deck, but I'm still at the mercy of the RNG gods. The lesson still remains: be luckier. And that is, quite frankly, a ****ty lesson.

In the end, if he devs want to go this way, they want to go this way. It's their game, their call. There are plenty of people here who seem to be fine with these missions as is. There are sure as hell plenty that aren't, though. I can pretty much guarantee everyone that Card Hunter will lose players to the Trogg missions. And, again, if said players aren't in the target audience, hey, I guess that's fine.

 

Nail on head, well put.

Some games, you can always beat an area with patience and caution. Some games just randomly kill you sometimes. "It breathes disenchantment, you die." This is one of those games. It's the "cold, hard logic of the dice roll".

It is quite a D&D thing. Gary and Melvin discuss how a GM has to be ruthless, how players are upset by level 14 characters getting killed by unlucky rolls. The game designers are telling us that they get this, I think. Perhaps we need to lighten up a bit about getting randomly obliterated by the RNG.

But if a game is going to randomly kill me, I have to really enjoy retrying or starting over. In my opinion, the solution to the Trog levels is to make it fun enough to start over with a different party just to beat the Trogs. Or fun enough so that "grinding" the earlier levels for more equipment options is something we all like do.

 

I kinda like punishing, so I hadn't noticed as much. But what Ultreos writes mirros my own experience. If I hadn't love multiplayer and gotten a lot of gear from it, I would have had the same problem. There's a pretty big chance that you don't have the mix of tools and experience to gradually climb the ladder of single player missions. It's more likely that you go up and down the first few rungs a couple of times before you can pass a certain point and that's a little demoralizing for a sense of progress.

 

But part of making the easy mode is so casual players don't have to grind for gear, but you seem to be suggesting they will need to do just that.

Right, and I'm with you, but that's not the casual player mentality.

Not that I'm a proponent of making CH fit casual play, I personally like it being "punishing" because that's how we learn. But I like the discussion because if design decisions can be made to make small changes to retain more casual players it's better for the community and game.

 

So far I think the best advice for those levels has been to make it clearer how to beat them in the game. Even though you play a tutorial mission that emphasizes attacking enemies from behind, by the time you get to Trogs it is somewhat forgotten. As well, hot spots / acid have barely any utility getting to that point in the game. Either the hints could be better or another mission could take place immediately before to ease the transition into Trogs. There was a grind required for me to get adequate gear but it wasn't so bad. I wouldn't mind being able to play missions more than once per day, though.