{suggestion} Allow Scatter Laser to Target One Character Multiple Times....

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by gulo gulo, Apr 6, 2016.

  1. gulo gulo

    gulo gulo Guild Leader

    ....hear me out, please.

    I know this is how it was originally designed, and it was determined that this was too powerful in testing. But, to make the card more usable and playable (at least in MP), what if....it rolled for Minor Erratic Damage for each shot?
    • It does not increase the damage potential of the card, only the allocation of the damage, the high point remains 18 damage
    • While you could one-shot an elf wizard (if in range), you're also just a likely to draw three malfunctions and hurt your self for 15
    • This change might also make Adaptable more playable, as you could nullify the second and third shot with it....or nullify the laser malfunctions (but you would be limiting your amount of Scatter Laser, of course)
    You could still split it up, or do 2/1. I think it would make the card more playable, but not a game changer. Even with 6 Bug Zapper 2000s, you've also got 6 Fumbles, which could really hurt.

    Just something that popped into my head with Richie's Frigid Laser in the Daily Deal today. Thanks for taking a minute to read my suggestion.
    Mama Mia likes this.
  2. rinco69

    rinco69 Hydra

    Scatter laser does need to be fixed. But a single card one shot sounds bad.

    What if the minor erratic damage were only applied once to a target even if targeted multiple times? Max dmg for single enemy 12. Or scatter across 3 for up to 18.
  3. Scarponi

    Scarponi Moderator

    It has very little to do with the minor erratic damage that it was nullified from being able to target a single character up to three times and much more to do with the buff-ability of the card. Savage Curse + Scatter Laser targeting one character is a near one shot kill at range 6 against any character with only a single card lost for Savage Curse (avg. damage would be 27). And because you only need LoS to a single character you get maximum effect every time instead of having to spend many more cards on maneuvering to get the full effect against all 3 opposing characters.
  4. Killer74

    Killer74 Hydra

    Scatter Laser is actually pretty useful on the current rotation (much easier to target everyone than usual). I've been using 2 Bug Zapper 2000s. They can do massive damage with buffs. Perhaps a minor change might be in order, but this seems too much of a one to me.

    Edit: Should have checked for new posts. Also, as an aside, I really like that you need good positioning to use Scatter Laser effectively, unlike the incredibly lazy burst 2s.
    WexMajor and timeracers like this.
  5. rinco69

    rinco69 Hydra

    Multiple buff damage against a single target sounds even more over powered.

    I guess my point is the additional damage to a single target should be 3 for each extra shot, no additional buff damage, no additional erratic damage. Then scatter laser is comparable to cooling laser.
    Pyrious likes this.
  6. Macizo

    Macizo Guild Leader

    The dmg evem you roll 1 to a single target would be 12 without buff that is a lot for a 6 range spell.
  7. rinco69

    rinco69 Hydra

    Macizo is right about the dmg for Gulo's suggestion. And if it caused 3 laser sprays then wow. My suggestion is slightly toned down...

    Average d6 roll is 3.5 (?). Scatter laser rounds up and divides by 2 so typical erratic is 2 dmg. My math says

    1) Current scatter laser:
    1/3rd chance of malfunction.
    Single target no buff 4-6 dmg usually 5.
    Three targets no buff 4-6 dmg each. Total usually 15.

    2) Gulo's suggestion:
    3 goes of 1/3rd chance of malfunction.
    Single target no buff 12-18 dmg usually 15.
    Three targets no change.

    3) My suggestion:
    1/3rd chance of malfunction.
    Single target no buff 10-12 dmg usually 11.
    Three targets no change.

    For comparison, Cooling Laser is 8-10 dmg usually 9 at range 8.

    Edit: fixed cooling laser.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
    gulo gulo likes this.
  8. Pyrious

    Pyrious Hydra

    I like multi-target with the condition that the 2nd and 3rd shots to the same target are plain +2 damage, no minor erratic, no buffs. This is good because it makes the card more potent (going by total dmg dealt) when used on multiple targets, but still quite powerful when used on a single target: 7 damage + minor erratic for an average of 8.75 damage and possibly buffs. Compare this to Laser Whip which is 8 damage with major erratic for an average of 11.5 damage, though a much shorter range of 2.

    EDIT: Note that this 8.75 average damage is identical to Cooling Laser's 7 + minor erratic. CL has the additional benefit of buffing cold magic damage (and range 8), while SL would have the additional benefit of increased potency when targeting multiple enemies (which requires decent positioning). In my opinion, after such a buff SL would still be inferior to CL for the same quality, but it would at least be comparable.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
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  9. gulo gulo

    gulo gulo Guild Leader

    Thanks, everyone. I'm happy a conversation has started on this card, and that such creative ideas are coming about because of it. I mainly thought the opportunity to damage the caster for the same amount of damage (2 battery explosions + meltdown = 18) might allow for multiple targeting. Also, with a savage curse, there's a potential for that amount of damage to the caster + additional card loss. I was looking at the risk/reward side of things, and thought the change would be okay on both sides.

    That being said, the world of buffing attacks is pretty foreign to me, so it is hard for me to keep that in mind. That being said, if it rolled three times, why not have it discard a card each time as well? That also seems fair to allow for the 27 damage. But maybe I'm extrapolating out way too much. (It does give me an idea on Savage Curse in general, however, ha).

    In any event, I still think the card need some other sort of usability to it.
  10. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader Staff Member

    Scatter Laser targeting each target only once was a necessary change made in development of EttSC due to the way buffing works in CH. Buffs apply to every instance of damage from an attack. At this time, we have no intention of changing this, so Scatter Laser will remain as-is for the time being.

    We ARE trying something interesting in AI with regards to these issues though, and if it works well we may consider applying its principles to Scatter Laser (and maybe Burst attacks) in upcoming balance changes. Stay tuned!
    ParodyKnaveBob, CT5, Macizo and 5 others like this.
  11. rinco69

    rinco69 Hydra

    If the Awesome Ideas and Application of Interesting principles doesn't work out, perhaps some other ways to fix Scatter would be:
    a. Penetrating
    b. Cone attack
    c. Range 8
    d. All of the above
    Pyrious likes this.
  12. Grimmace

    Grimmace Ogre

    This i have never quite understood, i mean with the induction of the previous
    expansions items, its possible to include 5-6 all out atks on a char give or take, with
    any reasonable melee atk this can be an instakill. Incidentally, maybe we make
    exceptions for bots due to their poor decision making, but cardotron in particular
    is rampant with one hit kills, even from afar with punishing beam.

    Was the same strange scenario when almighty hack and obliterating bludgeon got nerfed, these items were almost
    still only used in a niche capacity, but are now almost extinct with bejewelled being used
    in some cases almost exclusively. I mean these cards should be powerful, they are rare and sacrifice mobility and
    tokens, and are a risk to use in most cases, yet we seem to punish them further. How can
    we be worried about the odd emerald/amethyst quality card being too powerful, when
    its easy enough to pack savage curse fireballs and decimate an entire team without much effort.
    trrst and gulo gulo like this.
  13. Pyrious

    Pyrious Hydra

    On all out attack: Yes, you can one-hit-kill with help from this card. However, this requires a) catching your (blockless) opponent in range 1 and b) spending about 2 gold cards simultaneously. This means you're quite likely to be a sitting duck after the play. This is not comparable to a nigh unblockable (electroporter novice) one-hit-kill from range 6 with a single card.

    On savage curse: The solution I propose is to increase the quality of savage curse to bronze. This would cause Illjin to cost (minortoken), and Darkblood to cost (minortoken)(majortoken). (unfortunately this would push Glasod's Dark Eye and Chaos Hammer over the level 21 edge, but they could be modified).
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
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  14. Grimmace

    Grimmace Ogre

    Sure i get your point, but what chance of the scatter laser, reaching that damage anyway? its not going to one hit anyone really, but the hackmaster should given the right circumstances, otherwise there is no point it existing when the strongarm is available at tokenless. Like i said with all out atk, its easy to get multiple on a character now, so im not sure that one is a sitting duck after making a kill. Gotta agree with your savage curse rationale though, unfortunately, no-one likes quality/cost alterations which is fair enough, but sometimes is necessary
  15. rinco69

    rinco69 Hydra

    My thoughts on savage curse is it should only add damage when a card is actually discarded.
  16. gulo gulo

    gulo gulo Guild Leader

    What if you had to discard every time you caused damage while cursed? Burst hits 2? Discard two please.
    ParodyKnaveBob and Lucky Dice like this.
  17. Robauke

    Robauke Guild Leader

    Its a pity that multihit cant be realized for instant exploitation, its something i find interesting in concept - Mostly to bypass blocks. There was a double hit melee card suggestion once that made me think about the frenzy implications. My solution in that context was to make it "unbuffable", an arrogant attack... - http://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/suggestion-slashes.7266/#post-88302
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2016
  18. Deepweed

    Deepweed Thaumaturge

    Hello to this thread again! The new Unbuffable keyword works fine, it seems. I'm pretty sure this is what @Flaxative was referring to (tagging for confirmation).

    I'm assuming the application of Unbuffable on Scatter Laser, if that wasn't clear.

    The primary suggestion provided by @rinco69 (9 base damage + Minor Erratic Damage for a single target, wherein each successive targeting adds a flat 3 damage) seems appealing but I even then I don't see good reason to run it over Cooling Laser which is on better items and could make range 6 Cone Of Colds that deal 3 damage which would make Scatter Laser look very poor. Also, the triple damage application allows Reliable Mail to destroy it. The cone idea is quite appealing, but is difficult to do in practice: if you make it unbuffable it just comes across as a poor, unreliable damage card, while if you make it buffable you're giving buffed burst teams an option against Smoke Bomb.

    What if the card was made Unbuffable, you can target characters multiple times, and the Minor Erratic Damage applied multiplicatively? We're looking at 12-18 damage to a single target reduced by armor thrice. The possibility of a one-shot remains, so that's an issue. I wonder though, how would blocks function? Will they block the entire attack or just the first attack? The damage spread for this makes me consider how rinco69's suggestion would work: which hit would the erratic damage buff if you're going to target less than 3 characters, multiple times?

    Adding Penetrating sounds very appealing, though. Combine that with rinco69's primary sugestion and you have one neat card (albeit being quite text-heavy):

    Scatter Laser (AA)
    Magic Laser Attack
    You may choose up to three targets for this attack. You may target characters multiple times. Minor Erratic Damage, applied to the last hit on each character. Unbuffable, Penetrating.
    Damage: 3. Range: 6.

    Then again, a cone scatter laser sounds pretty awesome. It would make Repulsor Raygun extremely thematic (...even if Mullik's Blisterstaff exists). Here's my take:

    Scatter Laser (AA)
    Magic Laser Attack
    Cone, Minor Erratic Damage, Unbuffable, Penetrating.
    Damage: 3, Range: 8.

    That's a lot of keywords. Lol.
    ParodyKnaveBob likes this.
  19. gulo gulo

    gulo gulo Guild Leader

    From what I remember using The Twins in multiplayer, a block blocks all three attacks if aimed at the same character. I was clicking through sort of quick however, so I may have missed the damage from the subsequent hits.

    So I would assume that would be the case for the proposed Scatter Laser, if this is how blocks are supposed to work in this situation.
  20. Robauke

    Robauke Guild Leader

    pretty sure that "one block blocks all" is not the case with jims missile.

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