Quick Reactions, Immediately, and more

Discussion in 'Bugs' started by ParodyKnaveBob, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Discussion in World Chat led to some testing in casual. @Sakhr's reactive warrior and my Immediately wizard ran through some card order stuff with @gurel2 witnessing and further questioning.

    Summary:

    Quick Reactions' wording seems inconsistent with what it does and with what other cards do.

    Specifics:

    We primarily played Melt Armor against QR with a block in hand (Reflect Missile fwiw) in different orders, plus with Jump Back in hand, just kind of as sanity checking.

    Hand order: Block, QR, JB. Trigger order: JB, Block, QR.
    Hand order: QR, Block, JB. Trigger order: JB, QR, Block.

    To start, whether Melt or Force Cannon -- and whatever the hand order -- @Scarponi's splendid post on the Anatomy of an Attack plays out 100% as expected in that JB triggers first (step 7). That's cool. Good to go. The same is expected of Skip, Dodge, Reflexive Teleport, etc. (However, the fact that the keyword Immediately states before blocks but does not mention being after such-and-such other reactions can confuse people -- which is actually what sparked this discussion and demonstration in the first place.)

    Then, using Melt would of course Immediately discard armor at step 9, but we didn't bother looking at this any.

    Then, things get weird (step 10) in that blocks will trigger along with QR, merely by what order the cards sit in the hand. QR newer than block? QR rolls, then the block might cancel. Block newer than QR? Block might cancel before QR can ever draw (a fact that's always, always bothered me).

    There is some kind of inconsistency here. If it won't be cleared up by re-ordering functionally, then perhaps re-wording will do it. See, here's the thing.
    • It's a Boost. It certainly looks like it should fall under step 7 as a "'when played' effect." (Is the only problem here the fact that Scarponi's post should instead refer to Boosts that can change positioning? How much should this affect cards' wording I wonder?)
    • It reads that you draw (roll 4+) if a forward enemy "plays a Magic or Projectile card affecting you" -- and as gurel pointed out, it Immediately affects you via the armor discard, meaning (by its wording) it should roll for draw on Immediately before blocks.
    It just seems very strange at what point it gets the trigger. Really, by everything's combined wording, it just seems to me most natural that it should trigger (at step 7) in hand order along with JB, RT, Skip, etc. (Warding Lance is weird anyway as a non-Armor-card Armor, (the opposite of Adaptable's being a non-Boost-card Boost), but it's nonetheless understandable that Warding Lance's Boost would only trigger for its Armor once the Armor-reaction moment applies just because, hey, Armor.)

    Perhaps one way to ease some of this confusion would be to add a conditional "would" to QR's wording, e.g., "Whenever an enemy in front of you plays a Magic or Projectile card that would affect you, draw a card." Still, though, that doesn't touch gurel's Immediately point (wherein you are affected already).

    I expect it's not necessary, but I'll attach some log stuff here in a few minutes. some log stuff is below.


    ~ IN HAND: QR then JB (QR doesn't get named on roll failure)

    startTimer 1 1133

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Attaching Immovable to [SRC] Quinn the Stout

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=ParodyKnaveBob drew Melt Armor for [SRC] Quinn the Stout

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now ParodyKnaveBob

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Melt Armor,Instigator=[SRC] Quinn the Stout,Targets=Herakleios

    stopTimer 1 1128

    startTimer 0 1163

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Jump Back,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Unknown,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=ServerSelectCardsCommand::instruct selected card

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Group=Herakleios,Event=Discard,Card=Barbed Platemail

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Vulnerable,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=PreDamage,TriggerLocation=ActorAttachment

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Herakleios took 3 damage

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now Sakhr

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Sakhr passed.

    stopTimer 0 1138

    ~ IN HAND: RM, then QR, then JB (RM cancels it before QR can try to trigger)

    startTimer 1 1070

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=ParodyKnaveBob drew Flash of Agony for [SRC] Quinn the Stout

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now ParodyKnaveBob

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Melt Armor,Instigator=[SRC] Quinn the Stout,Targets=Herakleios

    stopTimer 1 1066

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Jump Back,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Unknown,TriggerLocation=Hand

    stopTimer 0 1075

    startTimer 0 1075

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Player=Sakhr,Participant=Sakhr,Actor=Herakleios,Event=Move,Origin=(4, 2),StartFacing=(1, 0),Destination=(2, 2),EndFacing=(1, 0)

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=Herakleios,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Herakleios, health = 18 (pi:0, gi:0, ai:0)

    Attached cards: Vanguard (1) Crusher (3) blocks Melt Armor

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Group=Herakleios,Event=Discard,Card=Reflect Missile

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=[SRC] Quinn the Stout took 1 damage

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now Sakhr

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Sakhr passed.

    stopTimer 0 1067

    ~ IN HAND: QR, then RM (I don't recall where JB was, but unimportant anyway)
    ~ ALSO: demonstrating no difference between Immediately (Melt) and normal (Cannon)

    startTimer 1 729

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now ParodyKnaveBob

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Melt Armor,Instigator=[SRC] Quinn the Stout,Targets=Herakleios

    stopTimer 1 711

    startTimer 0 878

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Jump Back,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Unknown,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Reflect Missile,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=Herakleios,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Vulnerable,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=PreDamage,TriggerLocation=ActorAttachment

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Herakleios took 3 damage

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now Sakhr

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Sakhr passed.

    stopTimer 0 864

    startTimer 1 711

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now ParodyKnaveBob

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Force Cannon,Instigator=[SRC] Quinn the Stout,Targets=Herakleios

    stopTimer 1 652

    stopTimer 1 593

    startTimer 0 864

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Jump Back,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Unknown,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Quick Reactions,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Sakhr drew a card for Herakleios

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Reflect Missile,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=Herakleios,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Vulnerable,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=PreDamage,TriggerLocation=ActorAttachment

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Herakleios took 4 damage

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Participant=ParodyKnaveBob,Actor=Herakleios,Event=Move,Origin=(0, 2),StartFacing=(1, 0),Destination=(0, 2),EndFacing=(1, 0)

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now Sakhr

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Sakhr passed.

    stopTimer 0 857

    startTimer 1 593

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now ParodyKnaveBob

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Melt Armor,Instigator=[SRC] Quinn the Stout,Targets=Herakleios

    stopTimer 1 567

    stopTimer 0 824

    startTimer 0 824

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Jump Back,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Unknown,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Player=Sakhr,Participant=Sakhr,Actor=Herakleios,Event=Move,Origin=(0, 2),StartFacing=(1, 0),Destination=(0, 2),EndFacing=(1, 0)

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Quick Reactions,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Reflect Missile,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=Herakleios,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand

    BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Vulnerable,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=PreDamage,TriggerLocation=ActorAttachment

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Herakleios took 3 damage

    BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now Sakhr

    BATTLE LOG: Player=Sakhr,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Run,Instigator=Herakleios,Targets=

    stopTimer 0 816

    ~

    Fun Fact:

    You can stack Melt Armor x10 on one character, and by necessity you won't spend any tokens doing so! Ha!
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
    Sir Veza likes this.
  2. Scarponi

    Scarponi Moderator

    "Affecting" is word used to explain reactionary cards that are not limited to being "targeted" (note how Jump Back says "when targeted"). If one reads the keyword of blocks, you'll notice that it also says "affecting you," thus there is nothing based on that word that should determine the step in which it triggers. As it stands QR and blocks occur at the same step. And thus just as in the case when there are multiple blocks in hand, if the leftmost block hits, no other blocks will trigger, if a block to the left of QR hits, the trigger chain will never carry down the hand to trigger QR.

    I do agree though that the wording of QR ("plays a card") certainly could be read to perceive it occurring at the earlier step.
     
    Sir Veza likes this.
  3. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Personally, I'm okay with the affecting wording in and of itself (including vs Immediately, although I wouldn't mind if that were accounted for), but I wanted to throw in various people's comments.

    My main beef is that there's no reason why someone should know the Boost-away-from-position cards will trigger before blocks, but the QR Boost won't. Only experience tells you this.

    Sakhr sounded like he'd prefer some kind of text stating explicitly, one way or another, that the Boost-away-from-position cards will trigger before Immediately. (After all, there's nothing on the cards stating they trigger before blocks.) Only experience tells you this as well.

    At the same time, I know why it's worded as an enemy playing a card. It can't just be, say, a Beacon in front of you, or Festering Guts exploding, or Reflect Missile sending something back (including my opp Reflects a card I Ducked in the first place). It's requires that the enemy directly plays it. How to make it clearer? ~shrug~ Don't know atm.
     
  4. Scarponi

    Scarponi Moderator

    Probably a simple solution would be to give Jump Back, Dodge, etc. the immediately key word, because that's really what's happening. Then the only "confusion" would be which immediately effects trigger first, but at least it would be clear what cards are grouped in that category.
     
    Sir Veza, Kalin and ParodyKnaveBob like this.
  5. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Yeah. Y'know what? I think I really like that. (I'll have to consider repercussions.)

    I Attack -- but you first Block to cancel. Cool, 'kay.
    I Immediately Attack -- then afterward, you Block to cancel. Cool, 'kay.
    I Immediately Attack -- but you first Immediately Boost out of the way. Makes awesome sense there.

    "Why didn't QR go before my block? It's an orange card!" "Well, it doesn't say Immediately. It just reacts in line with your blocks. Not like those other orange cards that do say Immediately." "Ohhh, okay, thanks."

    Yeah, I'm liking. (Too bad 6-7 cards would need changing instead of just a keyword definition or 2 cards (QR and Simian Reflexes) or something, heh.)

    Candidates for gaining the Immediately keyword (off the top of my head):
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  6. Scarponi

    Scarponi Moderator

    You're welcome to take my idea and submit it as a formal [Suggestion].
     
    ParodyKnaveBob and seth arue like this.
  7. gurel2

    gurel2 Kobold

    The thing that played out contrary to my expectations was quick reactions not rolling when the target of melt armor blocked the melt and discarded his armor anyway (because of the "immediately"). I would have guessed that the armor discard would count as "being affected" by the spell (in line with the text of quick reactions) and therefore quick reactions would roll for melt even when it is blocked.
     
  8. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Thank you, but that'd feel like unnecessary double posting. I suppose this is now more of a suggestion for clarity than a demonstration of a bug per se. I believe I'll just ask a mod (..oh, hi, how're you? lol) to move this to the Feedback & Suggestions subforum, and then I'll change the title accordingly.

    @gurel2 (if Immediately got added to the other cards)

    "Well, the armor discard is Immediately -- after JB but before QR -- and then the regular part (the damage) got blocked and cancelled, thus QR couldn't react to it."

    Not saying it's flawless, but at least it would feel explained, eh?
    (Still a lot simpler than Lifechancing Block, lol!)
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017

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