Discussion in World Chat led to some testing in casual. @Sakhr's reactive warrior and my Immediately wizard ran through some card order stuff with @gurel2 witnessing and further questioning. Summary: Quick Reactions' wording seems inconsistent with what it does and with what other cards do. Specifics: We primarily played Melt Armor against QR with a block in hand (Reflect Missile fwiw) in different orders, plus with Jump Back in hand, just kind of as sanity checking. Hand order: Block, QR, JB. Trigger order: JB, Block, QR. Hand order: QR, Block, JB. Trigger order: JB, QR, Block. To start, whether Melt or Force Cannon -- and whatever the hand order -- @Scarponi's splendid post on the Anatomy of an Attack plays out 100% as expected in that JB triggers first (step 7). That's cool. Good to go. The same is expected of Skip, Dodge, Reflexive Teleport, etc. (However, the fact that the keyword Immediately states before blocks but does not mention being after such-and-such other reactions can confuse people -- which is actually what sparked this discussion and demonstration in the first place.) Then, using Melt would of course Immediately discard armor at step 9, but we didn't bother looking at this any. Then, things get weird (step 10) in that blocks will trigger along with QR, merely by what order the cards sit in the hand. QR newer than block? QR rolls, then the block might cancel. Block newer than QR? Block might cancel before QR can ever draw (a fact that's always, always bothered me). There is some kind of inconsistency here. If it won't be cleared up by re-ordering functionally, then perhaps re-wording will do it. See, here's the thing. It's a Boost. It certainly looks like it should fall under step 7 as a "'when played' effect." (Is the only problem here the fact that Scarponi's post should instead refer to Boosts that can change positioning? How much should this affect cards' wording I wonder?) It reads that you draw (roll 4+) if a forward enemy "plays a Magic or Projectile card affecting you" -- and as gurel pointed out, it Immediately affects you via the armor discard, meaning (by its wording) it should roll for draw on Immediately before blocks. It just seems very strange at what point it gets the trigger. Really, by everything's combined wording, it just seems to me most natural that it should trigger (at step 7) in hand order along with JB, RT, Skip, etc. (Warding Lance is weird anyway as a non-Armor-card Armor, (the opposite of Adaptable's being a non-Boost-card Boost), but it's nonetheless understandable that Warding Lance's Boost would only trigger for its Armor once the Armor-reaction moment applies just because, hey, Armor.) Perhaps one way to ease some of this confusion would be to add a conditional "would" to QR's wording, e.g., "Whenever an enemy in front of you plays a Magic or Projectile card that would affect you, draw a card." Still, though, that doesn't touch gurel's Immediately point (wherein you are affected already). I expect it's not necessary, but I'll attach some log stuff here in a few minutes. some log stuff is below. Spoiler ~ IN HAND: QR then JB (QR doesn't get named on roll failure) startTimer 1 1133 BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Attaching Immovable to [SRC] Quinn the Stout BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=ParodyKnaveBob drew Melt Armor for [SRC] Quinn the Stout BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now ParodyKnaveBob BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Melt Armor,Instigator=[SRC] Quinn the Stout,Targets=Herakleios stopTimer 1 1128 startTimer 0 1163 BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Jump Back,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Unknown,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=ServerSelectCardsCommand::instruct selected card BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Group=Herakleios,Event=Discard,Card=Barbed Platemail BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Vulnerable,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=PreDamage,TriggerLocation=ActorAttachment BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Herakleios took 3 damage BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now Sakhr BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Sakhr passed. stopTimer 0 1138 ~ IN HAND: RM, then QR, then JB (RM cancels it before QR can try to trigger) startTimer 1 1070 BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=ParodyKnaveBob drew Flash of Agony for [SRC] Quinn the Stout BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now ParodyKnaveBob BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Melt Armor,Instigator=[SRC] Quinn the Stout,Targets=Herakleios stopTimer 1 1066 BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Jump Back,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Unknown,TriggerLocation=Hand stopTimer 0 1075 startTimer 0 1075 BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Player=Sakhr,Participant=Sakhr,Actor=Herakleios,Event=Move,Origin=(4, 2),StartFacing=(1, 0),Destination=(2, 2),EndFacing=(1, 0) BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=Herakleios,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Herakleios, health = 18 (pi:0, gi:0, ai:0) Attached cards: Vanguard (1) Crusher (3) blocks Melt Armor BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Group=Herakleios,Event=Discard,Card=Reflect Missile BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=[SRC] Quinn the Stout took 1 damage BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now Sakhr BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Sakhr passed. stopTimer 0 1067 ~ IN HAND: QR, then RM (I don't recall where JB was, but unimportant anyway) ~ ALSO: demonstrating no difference between Immediately (Melt) and normal (Cannon) startTimer 1 729 BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now ParodyKnaveBob BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Melt Armor,Instigator=[SRC] Quinn the Stout,Targets=Herakleios stopTimer 1 711 startTimer 0 878 BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Jump Back,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Unknown,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Reflect Missile,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=Herakleios,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Vulnerable,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=PreDamage,TriggerLocation=ActorAttachment BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Herakleios took 3 damage BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now Sakhr BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Sakhr passed. stopTimer 0 864 startTimer 1 711 BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now ParodyKnaveBob BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Force Cannon,Instigator=[SRC] Quinn the Stout,Targets=Herakleios stopTimer 1 652 stopTimer 1 593 startTimer 0 864 BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Jump Back,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Unknown,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Quick Reactions,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Sakhr drew a card for Herakleios BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Reflect Missile,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=Herakleios,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Vulnerable,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=PreDamage,TriggerLocation=ActorAttachment BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Herakleios took 4 damage BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Participant=ParodyKnaveBob,Actor=Herakleios,Event=Move,Origin=(0, 2),StartFacing=(1, 0),Destination=(0, 2),EndFacing=(1, 0) BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now Sakhr BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Sakhr passed. stopTimer 0 857 startTimer 1 593 BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now ParodyKnaveBob BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Melt Armor,Instigator=[SRC] Quinn the Stout,Targets=Herakleios stopTimer 1 567 stopTimer 0 824 startTimer 0 824 BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Jump Back,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Unknown,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Player=Sakhr,Participant=Sakhr,Actor=Herakleios,Event=Move,Origin=(0, 2),StartFacing=(1, 0),Destination=(0, 2),EndFacing=(1, 0) BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Quick Reactions,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerFail,Trigger=Reflect Missile,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=Herakleios,TriggerType=Action,TriggerLocation=Hand BATTLE LOG: Player=ParodyKnaveBob,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=TriggerSucceed,Trigger=Vulnerable,TriggeringActor=Herakleios,AffectedActors=,TriggerType=PreDamage,TriggerLocation=ActorAttachment BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=Herakleios took 3 damage BATTLE LOG: Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Msg=The active player is now Sakhr BATTLE LOG: Player=Sakhr,Scenario=MP Forgotten Temple,Room=ParodyKnaveBob's battle vs Sakhr,RoomID=1557170,Event=PlayAction,Action=Run,Instigator=Herakleios,Targets= stopTimer 0 816 ~ Fun Fact: You can stack Melt Armor x10 on one character, and by necessity you won't spend any tokens doing so! Ha!
"Affecting" is word used to explain reactionary cards that are not limited to being "targeted" (note how Jump Back says "when targeted"). If one reads the keyword of blocks, you'll notice that it also says "affecting you," thus there is nothing based on that word that should determine the step in which it triggers. As it stands QR and blocks occur at the same step. And thus just as in the case when there are multiple blocks in hand, if the leftmost block hits, no other blocks will trigger, if a block to the left of QR hits, the trigger chain will never carry down the hand to trigger QR. I do agree though that the wording of QR ("plays a card") certainly could be read to perceive it occurring at the earlier step.
Personally, I'm okay with the affecting wording in and of itself (including vs Immediately, although I wouldn't mind if that were accounted for), but I wanted to throw in various people's comments. My main beef is that there's no reason why someone should know the Boost-away-from-position cards will trigger before blocks, but the QR Boost won't. Only experience tells you this. Sakhr sounded like he'd prefer some kind of text stating explicitly, one way or another, that the Boost-away-from-position cards will trigger before Immediately. (After all, there's nothing on the cards stating they trigger before blocks.) Only experience tells you this as well. At the same time, I know why it's worded as an enemy playing a card. It can't just be, say, a Beacon in front of you, or Festering Guts exploding, or Reflect Missile sending something back (including my opp Reflects a card I Ducked in the first place). It's requires that the enemy directly plays it. How to make it clearer? ~shrug~ Don't know atm.
Probably a simple solution would be to give Jump Back, Dodge, etc. the immediately key word, because that's really what's happening. Then the only "confusion" would be which immediately effects trigger first, but at least it would be clear what cards are grouped in that category.
Yeah. Y'know what? I think I really like that. (I'll have to consider repercussions.) I Attack -- but you first Block to cancel. Cool, 'kay. I Immediately Attack -- then afterward, you Block to cancel. Cool, 'kay. I Immediately Attack -- but you first Immediately Boost out of the way. Makes awesome sense there. "Why didn't QR go before my block? It's an orange card!" "Well, it doesn't say Immediately. It just reacts in line with your blocks. Not like those other orange cards that do say Immediately." "Ohhh, okay, thanks." Yeah, I'm liking. (Too bad 6-7 cards would need changing instead of just a keyword definition or 2 cards (QR and Simian Reflexes) or something, heh.) Candidates for gaining the Immediately keyword (off the top of my head): Skip Dodge Skillful Dodge Uncanny Dodge Jump Back Reflexive Teleport Swarm Of Bats
Thank you, but that'd feel like unnecessary double posting. I suppose this is now more of a suggestion for clarity than a demonstration of a bug per se. I believe I'll just ask a mod (..oh, hi, how're you? lol) to move this to the Feedback & Suggestions subforum, and then I'll change the title accordingly. @gurel2 (if Immediately got added to the other cards) "Well, the armor discard is Immediately -- after JB but before QR -- and then the regular part (the damage) got blocked and cancelled, thus QR couldn't react to it." Not saying it's flawless, but at least it would feel explained, eh? (Still a lot simpler than Lifechancing Block, lol!)
