Predictions for the Rogue class based on how things look in the beta

(Rogue/rouge.)

But yeah. Rogues. After playing in the beta awhile, I have some predictions for the class. Current class decks look like this (in "code" to take up less space):

Warrior

Code:

[Default Move] (1 card)       Shield (3 cards)
Weapon (6 cards)              Heavy Armor (3 cards)
Weapon (6 cards)              Boots (3 cards)
Weapon (6 cards)              [Racial Skill] (3 cards)
Helmet (3 cards)              Martial Skill (3 cards)

Wizard

Code:

[Default Move] (1 card)       Arcane Item (3 cards)
Staff (6 cards)               Arcane Item (3 cards)
Staff (6 cards)               Robes (3 cards)
Arcane Item (3 cards)         Boots (3 cards)
Arcane Item (3 cards)         [Racial Skill] (3 cards)
                              Arcane Skill (3 cards)

Priest

Code:

[Default Move] (1 card)       Boots (3 cards)
Divine Weapon (6 cards)       Divine Item (3 cards)
Divine Weapon (6 cards)       Divine Item (3 cards)
Shield (3 cards)              Divine Item (3 cards)
Divine Armor (3 cards)        [Racial Skill] (3 cards)
                              Divine Skill (3 cards)

I predict:

Rogue

Code:

[Default Move] (1 card)       Boots (3 cards)
Weapon/Rogue Weapon (6 cards) Rogue Item (3 cards)
Weapon/Rogue Weapon (6 cards) Rogue Item (3 cards)
Helmet (3 cards)              Rogue Item (3 cards)
Light Armor (3 cards)         [Racial Skill] (3 cards)
                              Rogue Skill (3 cards)

Reasoning:

"Light Armor" is easy, since we already have "Heavy Armor." See how Warriors have "Weapon" slots? No special adjective, but for some reason the armor isn't just "Armor": it's "Heavy." Therefore, Rogues will have "Light."

I predicted "Helmet." I'm iffy on it, but I think it makes sense: "Boots" are a generic term, and "Shield" is a generic term, and none of the items on any of these (including "Helmet") sound like they're unique to a Warrior class, so why not see all three spread across more than one class? I could see a stealthy Rogue making use of a Helmet--just not a Shield.

Also, I predicted "Helmet" instead of a fourth "Rogue Item" because I see some Rogue builds getting into more melee combat than Wizards do: Wizards, of course, have four "Arcane Item" slots. One could nonetheless give Rogues a fourth "Rogue Item" instead of "Helmet" for interesting variation.

I hesitate to say that Rogues will have a special "Rogue Weapon" slot, though. There's a chance they'll simply have "Weapon," like Warriors do (notice the generic term?), but with one fewer total weaponry slot. That difference in number distinguishes the classes (see: interesting variation).

One thing's for sure: when Blue Manchu releases Rogues, they will release all the cards stockpiled for them. We know Cowardly Attack exists (a backstab), and we know Pickpocket exists: these sound ideal for Rogue Weapons or Rogue Items (whatever those are).

I ALSO predict Blue Manchu will release more Projectile cards. In the beta, I've seen more and more of those thrown-or-fired Projectile attacks. Isn't it funny how the player doesn't get too many of them? Two possibilities:

1). This Projectile flood will be released in the Weapon category, and Rogues get general Weapon slots just like Warriors do. Rogues, however, get unique Projectile modifiers in Rogue Items, allowing the "ranged attacker" build for Rogues.

2). This Projectile flood will be released uniquely for Rogues, in a Rogue Weapon category. Again, Rogues can do the "ranged attacker" build.

The alternatives to "ranged," of course, include thievery and other abilities as expected.

 

I had considered an extreme version, where "Weapon" was entirely replaced with "Projectile," but that would railroad a certain build. However, if you just swap one 3-card slot for a 6-card slot, don't forget to drop 3 cards somewhere else: replace "Helmet" with "[Some] Weapon" and you have to ditch a Rogue Item (or something).

As to drawing from discard: sounds to me like something Wizardly, or even Human-deck-manipulation-ly.

 

I think:

Code:

[Default Move] (1 card)
Weapon/Rogue Weapon (6 cards)
Weapon/Rogue Weapon (6 cards)
Helmet (3 cards)
Light Armor (3 cards)
Boots (3 cards)
Shield (3 cards)
Rogue Item (3 cards)
Rogue/Trick Skill (3 cards)
[Racial Skill] (3 cards)

Like a monk, but stealing!

 

I think Surgeonfish's would feel more "Rogue-y," being stronger on the attack and weaker on the defense. Perhaps . . .

If you think about Warrior armament and Priest armament, you'll often see 6 attacks on a Weapon but only 4 attacks on a Divine Weapon. The remaining Priest cards are utilities. What if Surgeonfish were right, but it were also the case that "Rogue Weapons" (whatever they are) averaged 5 attacks and 1 utility?

 

What if they where a bit more uniqe?
Weapon
Weapon
light armor
boots
rogue item
rogue item
rogue item
racial skill
trickery skill
trickery skill

In trickery you have stuff like converting attacks to traps ( traps convert the effect to a ground effect triggering on the start of a turn and is omnidirectional so cant be parried or blocked but are invisible) distraction making non attacks in to cantrips and possibly replacing them self and attack supports like adding stuff like stun,poison over time,stealthy to attacks you play.

This might be a terrible idea but it feels roguey to me.

 

The interesting question to me is what mechanics would be associated with a Rogue Item or a Rogue Skill. Frankly, a good chunk of stuff that I'd normally associate with a Rogue is already available on existing Weapons and Boots (big moves, attacks with Steps), meaning that Rogue Items and Skills would have to bring something really special to the table to make the class something that I couldn't already build by stuffing a Warrior full of Stab-y attack cards.

A related issue would be making these mechanics feel right on an Class Item, rather than on a Weapon. Imagine, for example, that the Rogue gets cards that strip opponents of Parries and Blocks. Would those logically make more sense on Weapons than on Rogue Items? It's tricky.

 

Like I said (or implied), I've been thinking about the various "builds" that are or aren't available right now. We already know that you can make a "Druid," "Paladin," or whatever "Priestly" thing you'd like out of a Priest, and similar deals for Warrior and Wizard. What's left? Well, this is why I emphasized the cards missing from today's player decks: backstabbing, thieving, and (much) projectile weapon use. At a minimum, there's no ranged attacker build available (what some people called "Ranger" for some reason) outside of magical means.

Consider:

Current Divine Skills help you with health (healing allies more, draining health from enemies), condition curing, and general card draw from being holy. Multiple themes right there.

If the Rogue is the catch-all for the above "missing card themes," then Rogue Skills should help you with position-based matters (do more damage from behind, get behind someone in the first place), card ownership (stealing, planting, palming), and projectile combat.

To elaborate yet more:

Do more damage from behind. Cowardly Attack is straightforward.

Get behind someone. Yes, Move cards make sense here, even if we already have Scamper elsewhere in the game. But what about "change enemy facing" cards? Hmm . . . no devs posted in that thread . . .

Stealing. Pickpocket is straightforward.

Planting. Have you seen Traveling Curse? It plants itself into an enemy's deck and waits to be drawn. Heck yes I want more of that; in a form that doesn't hurt me, this time. I believe this might mess with card colors, though, and at a minimum they'd have to be red/black: they'd count as red to you (you attack an enemy), and then a drawback to that enemy. (Maybe I'm reaching too far with this one.)

Palming. Back on familiar ground: hello, card draw! I imagine a Human Rogue to be a very popular character.

Projectile combat. Just let your mind run wild.

. . . So yeah. I've thought a lot about this.

 

I think Cowardly Attack or some lesser variation thereof could thematically work on a Rogue Item. At the very least, having a version of Cowardly Attack on the empty slot for either Rogue Item or Rogue Skill makes a lot of sense: even if you're a poorly equipped Rogue, you probably still know how to sneak up behind someone and club them over the head.

Is there any situation in which you wouldn't simply prefer some sort of attack card over a "change enemy facing" card? Seems like I'd almost always want the chance to change their facing AND either do damage or burn an opponent's Block. Then again, I haven't seen any "counter" cards just yet, so I might be off base.

Something that changes their facing and makes them Clumsy would probably be cool. Also, of course, some sort of ranged "change enemy facing" would be neat, but that might be neatly covered by any sort of projectile attack.

Indeed. Do we know exactly how Pickpocket does/would work?

I'd also like to see a focus on cards that deal with Armor and Blocks. Rogues are shifty and can penetrate defenses! Going back to the "counters" I mentioned earlier, those might be a good fit, too, whether or not they already exist.

Haven't seen that one, but it sounds neat. Debuffs like that seem pretty Rogue-like. Poisons are pretty Rogue-y. Maybe stuff that has to do with luck, as well? Affecting die rolls, or hurting an enemy if they draw particular card types?

Are there any general types of card draw that aren't already represented in the game? To separate Rogue card draw from Priest card draw, that is? "Discard your hand and redraw"? "Every time you are hit, draw a card"? A duration effect that lets you draw two basic Move cards a turn? "Discard all your Move cards and redraw an equal number of cards"?

Yeah. I guess the way I'm thinking about it right now is a Rogue with one or two regular Weapon slots (shared with Warriors) and one Ranged slot that has these special ranged weapons. Maybe make it a Crossbow slot to futureproof things against the introduction of any future ranged classes?

 

If a rogue class was in the cards (haha) surely a new race would be implemented, such as a halfling or lizardman?

 

It exists and it's played somewhat like Cowardly Attack: damage 5, range 1, if you attack the target from behind then one card ("random" or "oldest," I forget) is taken from the target's hand and placed into your hand. Only enemies use it.

Then there's Duck: block on a roll of 3+ (I think), and, if it succeeds, you take the attacking card and place it into your hand. Again, I think only enemies use it.

In both cases, the stolen card remains visible (which is handy for forcing discard and other effects). Once the thief plays the stolen card, it goes back into the original person's discard pile.

I repeat: Blue Manchu has said that they are preparing and carefully stockpiling cards for the eventual Rogue class. HMMMMMMM.

 

And there is also the block, the monkey's have (i forgot its name) that, if successful, lets you move the attacker as well as yourself, which would make a nice rogue block.

 

Acrobatic Flip: Block Melee on 3+, Move attacker 1, Move 1. I have it on the level 17 common Weapon Spear Of Dancing (1 bronze talent, 1 clear talent).

 

Seen it on a player item... ah yes Persistance, a lvl 18 rare 1 bronze talent dwarf skill.

 

Some random ideas (because I started a different thread not having noticed this one):

• 
  Where Warriors have a third Weapon slot, Rogues have a Ranged Weapon slot that uses bows/crossbows/slings/shuriken or whatnot that provide non-magical projectile attacks.
• 
  They should plainly share step-attacks and Penetrating attacks.
• 
  Rogues should have attacks that feature attacking from behind...a lot.
• 
  Rogues should have Blocks that trigger counterattacks if they block melee attacks.
• 
  Rogues should have (an) additional Rogue Skill slot(s) (being the only class or race to have more than 1) that provide things like Free Moves, Dodge/Jump Backs, modifying cards that add Poison 2/Duration2 to all melee attacks, "charisma"-based abilities like Stun and Baffle (maze) and so on. Rogues are known as the skill-based class in pretty much every game ever, so maybe even 3 Rogue Skill slots would be appropriate.

That would make it something like:

ROGUE
Weapon (6 cards)
Weapon (6 cards)
Ranged Weapon (6 cards)
Light Armor (3 cards)
Boots (3 cards)
Rogue Item (3 cards)
Rogue Skill (3 cards)
Rogue Skill (3 cards)
[Racial Skill] (3 cards)