Parry: Something needs to change.

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by HerselfTheElf, Jun 23, 2015.

  1. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    Either you don't understand what spiked mail is or you have no idea how to rate things, I prefer to think it's the former.
     
  2. Killer Bee

    Killer Bee Orc Soldier


    I might be exaggerating with the 1/7, but it's definitely worse than 2/7 armors, no? And not just because elven maneuvers is so popular. It has been worse for the entire history of the game. Maybe with the expansion the dominant build will be melee wizards with tons of mind leak, but I doubt it.

    This is just to explain what's going on with parry. It's the twofold problem of Aegis being too good, therefore discouraging anti-parry strategies, and war cry being so difficult to get, with spiked mail sinking its best chance.
     
  3. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    I have 2 things to say. Firstly, this X/7 is not accurate because there are actually 20 ratings: AAA, AA, A, B, C, D, E which can also have a + or a - except for E which can't get a -. I suggest either calling them things like paper+ or silver- or like 3 or 7 (paper= = 0). You can calculate the item level for 3 card items by adding all the cards in it same for 6 except you half the answer.
    Secondly, Spiked Mail is directly* better than Mail which has a rating of Paper+(1)(D+) because it is the same except it also has the damage the attacker text.
    * it is better but in some cases it can become more of a problem than an advantage. Example: Mighty Spark versus Spark if the enemy ducked the mighty spark then it was worse for you.
     
  4. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Thaumaturge

    @Killer Bee, I think you make an excellent point as to why we don't see more War Cry in the meta. I remember back before Defender's Block became all the rage, when I ran War Cry via Bellowing Helm on my TW1P team... and stopped, after the change, for just the reasons you outlined. And while I agree with @timeracers that you're being hyperbolic in your assessment of what Spiked Mail should be rated, I'm with you in that it is a very weak card, and often not worth the upgrade from normal Mail (and Mail is a pretty trashy card already).

    In a funny kind of way, I miss the days when Parry was king. There was a beautiful simplicity to those times, and there is a kind of fun (at least for me) that comes with being forced to take that impossible shot, knowing you've only got 1/6 or 1/36 odds of getting through. That said, Parry is king when it is a Warrior's game, and I wouldn't mind seeing that crown get toppled. Even now, ardent trailblazers like @CT5 push wizards more to the forefront.

    All that said, Defender's Block isn't bad for the game either. It forces a fine attention to detail - I instinctively see three-square block zones around anyone who could have a shield, now. I've had some good times trying to get around Defender's Blocks, or trying to use them myself. But meta's shift, and things grow old. My greatest hope for the new expansion is that it will shake up the rules for what is and isn't good in the current meta - we'll have to learn how to use a new block, and the positioning and counter-play that it demands. Parry will always be strong, so long as warriors are strong as well. But even now, it is not the strongest.
     
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  5. Christofff

    Christofff Guild Leader

    My two cents-

    It's all good!

    If parry becomes too strong, ppl will play more. if ppl play more (ie, blocking mace, etc), then you can run wizards and make all those parries dead cards in their hands!

    So, all good!

    Also, It's no coincidence that wizards also have electromancer traits which make their winds of war / tk pretty much unblockable, even against defenders block shenanigans.

    Like someone said earlier, it's just that the map favors warrior builds right now. Although... I've seen punishing bolt get more play.

    Either way, it's all good. Yin-yang, etc.!

    And with that, I must adieu.
    Fortune favor you,
    Captain Christoff.
     
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  6. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    True, that's an excellent point; if we assume that (block melee) is a profound nerf on a card, then- well, Parry's rarity is still a bit weird, just comparing it to Subtle Rarity, and Cause Fumble looks pretty gosh-darned bad by comparison, it'd be better to run a parry-tank out front than worry about slotting the more expensive and hard to find CF on your support units.
    And Block Missile seems a bit strangely balanced as well, with that perception of balance in mind.


    But, other block cards having issues aside, it does emphasize a certain back and forth build consideration, and really emphasizes putting at least one wizard in a party.

    So perhaps, it's fine as it is-
    And it's the other block cards that all need to be looked at.
    Though to some degree, we knew [various block cards having some balance issues] to be a certainty from the start.
     
  7. Punf

    Punf Lizardman Priest

    For what it's worth, all the blocks (22 of them) available on items and their quality:
    Cover up this list and see how many you can name.

    Flimsy Block (0)
    Unreliable Block (0)
    Wounded Block (0)
    Pushback Parry (1)
    Subtle Parry (1)
    Missile Block (2)
    Weak Block (2)
    Block (3)
    Bloodied Block (3)
    Catch Arrow (3)
    Hit the Deck (3)
    Jarring Block (3)
    Parry (3)
    Lifesaving Block (4)
    Cause Fumble (6)
    Desperate Block (6)
    Icy Block (6)
    Absorbing Block (9)
    Defender's Block (9)
    Disorienting Block (9)
    Duck (9)
    Shield Block (9)

    I think it's reasonable to state as a fact that out of this list, Parry is the card that is furthest from its true quality.
     
  8. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    Given that quality caps at 7, I'm not at all sure what those numbers are referencing, even after assuming you're using the term to refer to something else altogether. :/
     
  9. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    You are so silly using the wiki's rating, the ratings are actrually: AAA, AA, A, B, C, D, and E all can also have a + or a - except E which can't have a -. The item level is based on the value of the cards so if you convert a D= into a 0 and convert the other things around it then you can calculate item levels.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
  10. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    You'r missed a couple of them:
    Surging Shield Block(6)
    Hard to Pin Down(6)(or 9 for wizs)
     
  11. plenty of stuff counters parry. highly mobile attacks like nimble, magic attacks, status effects, and last but not least war cry. Maybe you need to run a more balanced party that incorporates some of these elements?
     
  12. defrb

    defrb Kobold

    Warcry on more items would be awesome.
    Humans/Elfs should also have a racial skill+warcry.
     

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