Loot & Legends: First Big Departure from "Card Hunter" Design

Read all about it here: http://www.dropforge.com/defining-class/

(tl;dr: Each party will consist only of a Dwarf Warrior, Human Priest, and Elf Wizard)

Personally, I think this is a really bad decision. Unless they triple (or more) the number of available cards to really allow niche builds, this would really make all combats feel very samey in multiplayer. Granted, for single player this forced thing might be fine... but I really strongly question the decision. I'm sure there will be other design decisions to balance this change though, such as Elf Traits being tailored to be useful for Wizards (which currently isn't really the case).

 

Just read the post. Sounds like they are making the game simplicated for the casual player and completely killing single player replayability all because they think it's too complicated to balance. for a game to survive long term it needs to have intellectual depth that keeps an adult with money to spend engaged. Sounds like they are turning it into a beginner version of card hunter for kids to play who found party design overwhelming. I was thinking of buying it on release and sinking coin into it. Not anymore. It's not going to be the game I currently enjoy to play. I want to say well done flax and other devs for not going down the path of simplification and keeping cardhunter the great game it is. Makes me feel like buying some pizza to chear me up

 

Isn't it going to be free-to-play? Without some type of retention to keep people coming back I'm not sure how well it will do financially then. One of the reasons people keep coming back to similar games, like Hearthstone, is that there is a lot of content and things to explore. Multiple class combinations and different strategies for each.

I think their plan can work if they really focus on the archetypes and creating unique subsets. Right now we kind of have that with certain focused builds like Basher/Bruiser, Crusher, Slicer, Impaler, Step Attacker, All Out Attacker, and Bejeweled. If they expand on that and make it more interesting it could work...?

Ultimately, I think this is a good choice for single player overall, I just don't think it will be a good decision for multiplayer.

Wish they'd consider hiring someone with extensive Card Hunter multiplayer experience... *whistles innocently* :-P

 

*buys stock in HP*

 

This is not going to be "Card Hunter, only on tablets", but a different game, on a different platform, for a different audience.

I'm not worried about this at all. The fact they're simplifying/streamlining the game doesn't necessarily mean L&L will result in a dumbed down experience. I'm actually even more eager to wait and get to know more about the actual game, and see if they can finally deliver a quality product.

 

Yes, it is definitely a different game for a different audience. No doubt about that. But I'm just curious to see how much replayablity, especially in multiplayer, they can get with a forced team composition.

 

I have a feeling MP in L&L will be marginal to the game experience as a whole, just like it has always been the case with CH.

Obligatory clarification: I don't mean MP in CH is unimportant (it probably is the part of the game I enjoy the most, tbh). But I'm pretty sure everybody around this boards is well aware the vast majority of CH players don't actually get involved into MP, as the devs stated this several times.

I'd also ask how many players actually ever change their party around while going through the campaign. The hardcore, forum-goer player (i.e. "us") is hardly representative of the players base as a whole. That'd be extremely interesting data to look at, actually.

My guts feeling tell me the vast majority of people just stick with the characters they happen to pick whenever the game gives them a chance. I might be wrong of course but, keeping that in mind, I think it makes perfect sense for them to focus on a fixed party. At least initially, since obviously this design decision doesn't automatically bar out the eventuality of them releasing more class/race combos and the ability to change your party composition in a post-release update.

 

I have read some entries on dev-diary and now I am afraid that I am not the target audience of L&L at all. Especially part about power tokens left me worried.

What Jonathon Loucks perceives as a weakness of power tokens idea, is one of the most important strengths in my opinion. So I can't be happy when I see him trying to "alleviate negative aspects" in a manner described in "Well Equipped - part 1". Additional layer of item's evaluation and necessity of trade-offs (for example: choosing in which slots use one's power tokens) while deck-building in CH makes the process both more engaging (more meaningful choices from player's perspective) and fun.

 

Multiplayer is extremely important to a CCG-style game format to keep player retention high. Imagine Hearthstone with only PvE or even with PvE as the primary focus. It would be no where as big as it is today.

Many players don't change their party around while going through the campaign. I barely did myself, and I know LOTS of players don't. Heck, I know a few people who quit the game because they felt having to customize the party for each level was too time consuming and took away too much. They wanted to be able to keep the same party and slowly grow them instead of having to completely change builds to beat some levels (I'm looking at you Trogs).

I think the design changes of "player level" vs "individual character level" is a great one! However, forcing 1/1/1 class + race really kills a lot of interesting play styles. I'm going to hold out hope that they will tackle this with the changes to builds and cards -- but who knows at this point.

 

I played through the campaign most of the way with my first party, then I made a second party to clean out some of the treasure hunts that I was too high level for.

I can see where they're coming from a bit with the items, because I do think there's a lot of items that are nearly identical and don't add much to strategy or gameplay by having both of them. I'm not entirely sure that they're going about it the way I would though, from those dev blogs. Locking the party feels... unnecessary, but i'm not the target audience for that, I think.

 

Game flavor has shifted from AD&D to ADHD.
Possibly a good call for the target audience.
I wish them luck.

 

I'm not sure they're going the way I would either, but then I'm not a professional game designer. Anyway, I feel there's merit to the direction they're going, at least on paper.

A very large portion of CH items do feel a bit same-y, but that's not all bad: even if we limit ourselves to common/uncommon items alone, having such a big pool means players are very likely to find (either as a drop or at shops) almost exactly the specific set of items they need to tackle a module or to implement a fancy deck-building idea they might have.

I do find the Dropforge's approach to be quite interesting, especially if you keep the typical mobile-device user in mind. But a lot will boil down to how good and diverse they can make that smaller pool of items. We shall see.

 

Next post is up talking about the archetypes for the Warrior: http://www.dropforge.com/warriors-come-play/ (Awesome article title also)

I really like some of the changes and how more cards have unique attributes instead of just "X damage at Y range." That was one of my biggest gripes about Card Hunter and something I kept pushing for in my balance change suggestions (adding Hard to Block and other keywords to otherwise boring attacks that are simply outclassed by others). Curious to see the other archetypes and how they pan out. Still feels weird to be forced a 1/1/1 party though...

 

I still want to keep my eye on this game. I really like the aesthetics so far, and I still have hope that it would be fun to play.

Maybe the sheer diversity of class sub-types will make it a decent game. One of my favorite online games had a fixed Archer/Wizard/Warrior setup and it worked quite well.

As for ditching Power tokens, really hope that they consider an increase in the number of equipment slots, because using the same armor would get old pretty quick. There isn't much flexibility inherent with having all items cost the same.

Just have to wait and see.

 

Where does it say they are ditching Power Tokens? In all the screenshots I've seen they are keeping that.

 

Yeah, they're simplifying them, but not ditching them. (Only one type, only 5 at top level.)

 

Ah, I see in the Equipment section. Must have skipped that. They say that there are only one type but 6 for use at max level. http://www.dropforge.com/well-equipped/

 

this is a stupid idea. I am completely turned off by the 'new and improved' version of the game. I've also read about some of the other 'enhancements' they have decided to make. I really am bummed about this because I was really looking forward to playing it on a mobile device. Now? for every bone-headed change they make I keep losing more and more interest.

 

There will always be Card Hunter =)

 

true. but i was getting excited to see this out on other devices etc. but it seems so much is getting changed it will be a mere shell of it's former self.