Item Creation Design Discussion

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by Stexe, Oct 24, 2015.

  1. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    Hey, so @Sir Veza suggested I create a thread discussing item design. I'll try to give some generalized insights into what makes an item design good and work well from my opinion.

    This is generally designed around CENSORED ITEM CREATION CONTEST NAME. Remember, do NOT post your potential item submissions or questions that might impact your actual item submission or basically any question actually relating to item design that might potentially be a submission because that's against the (*FORMER*) "rules"! Anyway...

    Items should contain cards that suit the specific item type.


    WORK IN PROGRESS (I'll re-organize the list later). Will be updated every so often.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015
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  2. seth arue

    seth arue Thaumaturge

    This is a good start! I await seeing more. I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd prosper here. :)
     
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  3. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    I was working on more and looking up items for examples, but the server went down. A lot harder to search the Wiki for examples than my Keep. Will add more when the game comes back and I can do my research and such.
     
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  4. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    Okay, finished the first part going over Warrior specific items. Will add more as I go along. This is only the first part (showing what has been done as to not violate weird exceptions). I'll go into more details later. Most of these guidelines should be a good stepping stone, along with the idea of "don't make an item that will supersede any current item completely for the same token cost."

    Let me know if there are some exceptions or things I missed.

    EDIT: Priest specific is up. Half asleep and I'm missing a few legendaries (specifically EttSC stuff) that might be exceptions... so I probably missed something.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
    Sir Veza likes this.
  5. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    Because I have a disagreement with Stexe on the item design rules, I will therefore declare what I think are design rules and design principals.

    For those who are confused about AA: you can talk about items until they are submissions then you can no longer talk about them in the forums except in the thread for discussing submissions.

    Preamble:
    Items are the way that people equip their characters with cards and the only thing you loot in this game (other than xp). Items are not a random bunch of cards bundled together, it may look like that but there are rules to the madness. Obviously a game all about looting items and game-play will have lots of design principals behind them. To make looting fun, they need a lot items to be fun, which requires them to have fun cards. To make game-play fun, it needs to not be repetitive which requires battles being different from each other. People like winning, some people like winning more than others, they may enjoy winning more than having an interesting game and therefore not play interesting builds. Also because people like winning, people are going to try to win which means some of them will try to find the best items in the game and use them, which is why there are so many similar parties going into multiplayer. The more people use the same build as each other the more the matches are going to be repetitive which reduces the fun of the game. So items need to be balanced otherwise the game will be repetitive.

    This is the way that items are generated:​
    • Three card items' level are equal to the sum of the cards rating, minimum 1. (D = 0. + or - adds or subtracts 1. Changing the letter changes it by a multiple of 3. The order of letters from highest to lowest is AAA, AA, A, B, C, D, E)
    • Six card items' level are equal to the sum of the cards rating divided by 2, rounded down, minimum 1.
    • The total value of an item is equal to the sum of the cards rating. (Just like 3 card items)
    • The information for the cards (excluding pictures and sounds) is at http://live.cardhunter.com/data/gameplay/Cards/Cards.csv (this has comma-separated values), the order of data of a card is posted at the top of it.
    • Every 9 total value an item has increases the power token cost by 1 by first making it cost minors ((minortoken)) then majors ((majortoken)) then greaters ((greattoken)) and finally ultimates ((ultimatetoken)), but six card items don't cost minors if it has total value less than 14
    • The introductory level of an item is equal to the highest introductory level (simply level in the card database) of the cards in it. (this effects when you can loot it)
    • The rarity of the item follows this formula(link).
    • Items need to have assigned to them a name, cards, slot, image, and a set.
    • Items can also have a short name, slot default(like bare knuckles), tags(like no loot), manual rarity, and manual value.
    Guidelines for making items in general.​
    Items should be neither too strong or too weak (considering both MP and SP). Consider synergy for judging how powerful items are.
    Items should follow the flavor of the class it belongs to.
    You should ask this question about the item you are making: "how does this work?" (if you have a pocket knife it shouldn't have any stabs)
    Are there items similar, if there are multiple items with 2/3s of the cards being the same, then it probably shouldn't be made, but if this is trying to make the item more accessible then it is fine.
    Is this directly better or worse than other items?
    Disclaimer: These are guidelines and not rules.

    Slot rules.
    Note: There are exceptions to these rules but they rare

    General:​
    • Limit 1/3 pure trait handicaps, and these are ignored for other requirements (so 2 holy cards and 1 of these would on an item would be considered to have 100% holy cards)
    • Limit 1/2 armors with Immunity(ies) and Keep on Heavy Armor, Divine Armor, Robes.
    Weapon:​
    • Required to have at least 1/2 melee attacks excluding unholy melee attacks.
    • Some Blocks are allowed: Parry type blocks (subtle, parry, pushback), low damage blocks (flimsy, weak), damaged blocks (bloodied, wounded), Disorienting Block, Laser Block, Unreliable Block, Lucky Charm, and Shifting Block.
    • Violent Spin and Dodge is allowed.
    Helmet:​
    • Required to have at least 1/3 low armor cards: 2 armor or less.
    • Command, Team! cards are allowed. Also battlefield training cards are allowed.
    • Quick Reaction is allowed exclusively on Helmets.
    • War Cry is allowed exclusively on Helmets and Dwarf Skills.
    • Some low damage melee attacks are allowed: Flaring Torch, Weak Chop, Lunges, Barge, All Out Attack, and maybe more.
    • Lifesaving Block is allowed.
    Shield:​
    • Required to have at least 2/3 blocks and/or evasive moves (Dodge, Jump Back)
    • Low damage Melee Attacks are allowed excluding unholy melee attacks: 4 damage or less.
    Heavy Armor:​
    • Required to have at least 2/3 armor cards.
    • Some low damage melee attacks are allowed: Lunging Bash, Lunging Strike, Simple Bash, and maybe more.
    Martial Skill:​
    • Required to have at least 1/3 positive melee combat traits or Wind Dancer or Lycanthropic Form.
    • Melee attacks are allowed excluding unholy melee attacks.
    Divine Weapon:​
    • Required to have at least 1/3 melee attacks (including unholy melee attacks)
    • Require to have at least 1/6 Divine Item cards.
    • Required to have at least 5/6 melee attacks and Divine Item cards.
    • Some blocks are allowed: Parry type blocks, Unreliable Block, Lifesaving Block, Lucky Charm, and Shifting Block.
    Divine Item:​
    • Required to have 1/1 holy cards, unholy cards, and radiation cards.
    Divine Armor:​
    • Required to have 1/3 armor cards.
    • Required to have 1/3 holy and unholy cards.
    • Holy and unholy cards are allowed.
    • Lifesaving block is allowed.
    • Purging Strike is allowed.
    • Holy Armor and Sacred Shroud are allowed exclusively on Divine Armors.
    Divine Skill:​
    • Required to have 1/3 positive healing, holy, or unholy related traits or Vampiric Form.
    • Holy and unholy cards are allowed.
    Staff:​
    • Required to have 1/2 magic cards excluding holy, unholy, and radiation cards.
    • Some low damage melee attacks are allowed: 6 damage or less of these types: Fire, Bash, Barge, Step, Text-less.
    • Some blocks are allowed: Parry type blocks, low damage blocks, Desperate Block, Block, Jarring Block, Surging Shield Block, Missile Block, Lucky Charm, and Shifting Block.
    • Reflexive Teleport is allowed.
    Arcane Item:​
    • Required to have 1/1 magic cards excluding holy, unholy, and radiation cards.
    • Reflexive Teleport and Teleport Self can be used instead of a magic card.
    • Cards with both high damage (3 or more) and high range aren't allowed(3 or more)
    Robes:​
    • Required to have 1/3 low armor cards: 2 armor or less.
    • Arcane Item cards are allowed.
    • Dimensional Traveller and Hover are allowed .
    • Move cards are allowed.
    • Resistant Hide, and Medium's Garb are allowed exclusively on Robes.
    Arcane Skill:​
    • Required to have 1/3 positive non-melee damage type traits or Dimensional Traveller or Ethereal Form.
    • Arcane Item cards are allowed.
    • Cards with both high damage and high range are allowed.
    Boots:​
    • Required to have 1/3 move cards.
    • Low armor cards are allowed: 2 armor or less.
    • Immovable is allowed.
    • Some low damage melee attacks are allowed excluding unholy melee attacks: 3 damage or less of these types: Chops, Lunges, Penetrating, Text-less. Limit 1 pure melee attack or 2 non-pure melee attacks.
    • Arcane Feedback is allowed but is limited to 1.
    Dwarf Skill:​
    • Some move cards are allowed: Charges and Muscle Through and Spin Around
    • Low armor cards are allowed: 2 armor or less.
    • Some blocks are allowed: Parry, low damage blocks, Hit the Deck, Desperate Block, Unreliable Block, Jarring Block, and Absorbing Block.
    • Dwarven Battle Cry, Duck, Shrug it Off, and Antimagic Skin are allowed exclusively on Dwarf Skills.
    • War Cry is allowed exclusively on Helmets and Dwarf Skills.
    • Immovable and Trip are allowed.
    Elf Skill:​
    • Pure move cards are allowed.
    • Evasive moves (Dodge, Jump Back) are allowed.
    • Elvish Insight, Elvish Scamper, Elven Trickery, Pathfinding, Slippery, Scouting Run, Elven Maneuvers, Smashing Spin, Skip, Fey Silversmith, and Fleet are allowed Exclusively on Elf Skills.
    Human Skill:​
    • Required to have 1/3 command cards or exclusive human skill cards.
    • Command cards are allowed.
    • Some blocks are allowed: Parry type blocks, low damage blocks, Desperate Block, Jarring Block, damaged blocks (wounded, bloodied), unreliable block, and Shifting Block.
    • Leadership, Lateral Thinking, Inspirational Thinking, Forward Thinking, and Vanguard are allowed exclusively on Human Skills.
    • Some move cards are allowed: Slowed, Flanking Move, Escaping Run, Run, and maybe more.
    Exception Cards:​
    Firestorm: Ignore Arcane Item rule #3 (Cards with both high damage and high range aren't allowed.).
    Arcane Curse: Counts as a magic attack that isn't unholy.
    Blind Rage: Allowed on Weapons, Divine Weapons, Helmets, Dwarf Skills
    Push the Button: Allowed on Weapons, Divine Weapons, Staves
    Pull the Trigger: Can be used as a required magic card for Staves.
    Force Field: Counts as a low armor card.
    Adaptable: Counts as an armor with immunities and Keep.
    Counterspell: Doesn't count as a block card.
    Shimmering Aura: Counts as a low armor card.
    Rusty Armor: Counts as a low armor card.
    Entangling Roots: Counts as divine (holy/unholy) magic.
    Lunging Bash: Counts as having 3 damage instead.
    Holy Armor: Counts also as a holy card.
    Lifesaving Block: Counts also as a holy card.
    Howl: Counts as a command card and is allowed on Weapons, Helmets, Human Skills.
    Spark of Undeath: Counts as divine (holy/unholy) magic.
    Swarm of Bats: Counts as divine (holy/unholy) magic and is also allowed on arcane items, limited to 1 copy per item.
    Inquisitor's Badge: Counts as armor with immunities and Keep.
    Investigate: Counts as a pure move card.
    (Inquisition Bolt does indeed count as a low damage and low range magic card)


    Made considering these sets: Base, AotA, EttSC, CM.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
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  6. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    I was getting to those :-P Basically everything that is already calculated with Vakaz's item creator is in the formulas. However, the lists above (what cards are allowed and what are not minus a few exceptions) are not looked at when making items in his editor. Thus I figured it would be good to have both to cover both bases.
     
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  7. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader Staff Member

    Yeah, this can be confusing. It might be easier to think of divine weapons as requiring a mixture of melee attacks & magic cards. Of course there are a couple of exceptions but generally radiation cards match the same purpose as holy/unholy cards in divine weapon design. For a lot of your exceptions, it's worth noting that Forcefield counts as an armor card for item design, and radiation cards count as holy/unholy. Not for gameplay, mind you, just for item design, they fill the same role.

    And regarding some of your restrictions (e.g. there're no blocks on divine items) I wonder why you mention them if you're not going to have an exhaustive list of restrictions. Like, no armor on divine items ;)

    Stexe hasn't actually posted anything subjective yet, so I hope you don't disagree with him... Everything he's posted so far is clearly based on the existing item pool and matches our rules for item design. He's missing some rules, as you might imagine, but everything he's written in this thread is basically accurate.
     
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  8. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    I disagree with the divine items must have a holy/unholy card rule. My rule is that divine items must have all holy/unholy/rad/gene, also cause fumble and entangling roots are allowed. Trait handicaps are allowed everywhere and don't count, but you can only have so many on an item.
     
  9. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    Because there are no exceptions where some divine items have armor? There are divine items with a block (Cause Fumble). And I mention no blocks for armor because both are viewed as defensive. I could probably make a full list of things not included in a single line post though.
    If you have the rules for the item design can you just post them? It would be a lot easier to just get an official set of rules from the source.
    I'm saying basically the same thing, just in a different way. I'm using "exception" format for instances where only 3 or less are exceptions instead of defining it as a hard rule.
     
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  10. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    This!
     
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  11. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    No, they are quite different. Your rule points people in the right direction but it doesn't tell them what the restriction really is. Example item that follows your rule: Unholy Wellspring, Stab, Stab. (it has an unholy card and doesn't have blocks)
     
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  12. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader Staff Member

    Mostly because any documentation of them is partially obsolete and poorly formatted. I'd have to do a lot of writing to present the most up-to-date version of them in a useful format, and I don't have time for that :) I'm sure that between them @Stexe and @timeracers will produce something almost as good.
     
  13. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    Ah, okay. I see what you're saying. Yeah, I haven't gone through and specified every single "not allowed" card. I've only been specifying rules that have a few exceptions. Your suggestion might work, let me think about how to reform around that.
     
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  14. Vlamona

    Vlamona Thaumaturge

    This is confusing, could you just post a list of the max score for each token combination?
     
  15. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    Format: total value range = tokens
    For 3 card items:
    -9(yes items can have negative total value) - 8 = tokenless
    9 - 17 = minor
    18 - 26 = major
    etc
    For 6 card items:
    -18 - 13(instead of 8) = tokenless
    14 - 17 = minor
    18 - 26 = minor, minor
    27 - 35 = major, minor
    36 - 44 = major, major
    etc.
     
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  16. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    I still wish there were 6 card items that only cost 1 major token. Seemed weird to me not to have that.
     
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  17. Wocket

    Wocket Orc Soldier

    Kind of off topic, I fear, but directly about above.

    I agree in theory, but this would be problematic with the way tokens are received during leveling.

    A single major vs. two minors saves you a token, which in some cases is more valuable than the cost of using a major. So what power level should this theoretical weapon be?

    I'd argue it couldn't be much, if any, more powerful than a two minor equivalent. But if it drops at the level of a two minor, a new player going through modules in SP is going to loot a lot of items unequippable for a long period of time.

    So where would they fit into the normal game progression?
     
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  18. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    That's true, it is kind of in a weird place progress wise. I'd say after 2 blue tokens is where it would fit best (so 26 to 38 or something value?). It would need to change a lot of stuff but I just thought it was weird to not see that.

    Anyway, back on topic, I'll update a few more of the info later today I think. Would still be useful if the official (even if outdated) info was provided.
     
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  19. Vlamona

    Vlamona Thaumaturge

    Bumping this 'cause of the new Alozyo competition.
     
    Stexe likes this.
  20. Han Lee

    Han Lee Guild Leader

    Flaxative made a discussion thread himself
     

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