Frustrated with PvP

Discussion in 'Card Hunter General Chat' started by Shoe, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. Shoe

    Shoe Mushroom Warrior

    I am a NOOB to the game, and I tried my first multiplayer match this weekend. I find that the parings created by the system automatically are a bit unfair. I played 5 different games, 2 of which were against the GM. The 2 GM games I won in what felt like a fair fight, but in the PVP matches i felt helplessly outgunned as I was massacred by the opponents I was paired with.

    In it's current state, I would be incredibly unlikely to play multiplayer again. I love the campaign game and while it is challenging, I feel like my defeats are much more deserved (and I still lose quite often).

    The root of the issue seems to stem from my low rating (120-ish) and there not being many people online with such a low multiplayer rating. I was paired with people who had 700-800 ratings (which i believe was due to low population of low ranking players)...if I am so mismatched, I wish the system would pair me with the GM opponent instead of having me be blown out of the water by more XP'd players.

    Another thing that I would suggest considering, it allowing for practice multiplayer games, where you can force a GM opponent, but still play the multiplayer, advancement-free game. I find that learning what a whole new set of items do for PVP mode took a lot of getting used to, and I would have liked to practice more before I was thrown into the fray with players who know what they are doing.

    Just my 2 cents

    Snacksmoto likes this.
  2. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    You shouldn't be paired against 800 rating people at 120 are you sure that was the case?
  3. Unlucky Scarecrow

    Unlucky Scarecrow Goblin Champion

    The trip up to 1000 is actually pretty fast, because when you win you gain a lot and when you lose you lose very little. I wouldn't really consider people in the 600-800 rankings to be an indicator of being more skillful than people from 0-600; It just means they've been playing for a little longer.

    I also think it takes a lot of practice to be able to gear for multiplayer and experience in single player helps very little. Some tactics are more effective vs AI and less against players, plus player characters have a much different array of cards and combos than AI do.

    Plus, as with any competitive game, it's important to keep in mind; Single player is designed to be beaten, while Multiplayer is essentially a zero-sum game where victory is almost literally a coinflip between two equally skilled and equipped opponents. It's impossible to expect the multiplayer win ratio to be anything near a single player campeign win ratio.
  4. Shoe

    Shoe Mushroom Warrior

    almost 100% sure
  5. Shoe

    Shoe Mushroom Warrior

    I'm aware of that, and I know i personally don't prefer that type of play, however, i just though I would express how utterly stomped I was feeling and how it turned me completely off as I was paired with a player that was higher ranked than me multiple times.
  6. Blindsight

    Blindsight Ogre

    But in playing and beating the GM, your ranking goes up so the more you beat the GM the higher ranked players you will be matched up with. I agree with you though, I think your issue is the low multiplayer population (especially at your level).
  7. dmar314

    dmar314 Goblin Champion

    Well once the game is released there should be many more "low ranking" players for you to play against. Also, once you get your characters to level 16 in the campaign it can get a lot easier, since you can buy some of the best cards at the goblin bazaar for the lowest prices (yes many of the best cards for pvp are actually common or uncommon), not to mention randimar's rarities. That said, the option to practice against the AI in casual games would be excellent, especially since I've only been able to fight against Gary and Mom and I would love to see how some of the other GMs work.
  8. Shoe

    Shoe Mushroom Warrior

    The tutorial introduced me to PVP when i hit level 6-8 or so I figured I could face some low level opponents and at least do tolerably well, but I was absolutely annihilated, to the point where i was down to one guy after 2 rounds or so.
  9. Unlucky Scarecrow

    Unlucky Scarecrow Goblin Champion

    To be fair, at high rankings "Absolutely annihilated" usually involves losing two characters right from round 1. It's very possible, especially with Warrior focused decks.
    Blindsight likes this.
  10. Blindsight

    Blindsight Ogre

    I was about to say the same thing. This isn't entirely unlikely at any ranking and may feel very different than single player. You'll feel good about it when you get a great draw and are able to pull it off against your opponent though. MP just comes down to having more experience and getting more cards. The more you stick with it, the more you'll start to understand the subtleties and hopefully enjoy it more.
  11. Snacksmoto

    Snacksmoto Mushroom Warrior

    I believe you are missing the point to the post.

    Blindsight, it is a matter of newer players getting matched against veteran players even if a new player has gotten enough AI wins to be of a similarly high MP Ranking. Veteran players have had the time to acquire a lot of high end gear to be able to craft decisive strategies from. The newer players simply don't have the sizable pool of quality equipment to compete. We can only craft a basic strategy aside from the default MP gear from a hodgepodge of farmed gear. Almost all of that gear is low level from the campaign. The only way new players stand a chance in MP is to either get matched against the AI with a predictable deck, or a similarly new player with a similarly small pool of equipment. They'll have some surprises but won't have an overall specialized build strategy. Those AI wins are the only way a player, recently introduced to Multiplayer, is able to acquire higher level, and therefore higher quality, gear. After about fifteen total wins, I found myself almost into the 1000 Ranking and was regularly getting annihilated by obviously veteran players. I don't see how I should have had such a high ranking after a relatively few number of wins. Heck, if they were all in one day I still wouldn't have gotten to the Epic chest reward yet.

    I have heard other veteran players say to basically "throw" a whole bunch of games to bring the Rating down. That sounds very much like a broken system. Part of it, I think, comes from the MP Rating to be affected by games versus the AI which prematurely pushes new players into tiers that they are not equipped to compete in. Another part of the problem, which cannot be directly addressed, is simply the population of players in MP at the time of the match.

    The problem is that new players are being matched against veteran players. In these situations, it is not a zero-sum game since there is a huge difference in skill and equipment. These kinds of matches are heavily weighted against new players despite skill.
  12. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    That is a numbers issue and should be fixed by it self once beta is open and more people play.
  13. Blindsight

    Blindsight Ogre

    Not missing the point at all. I concurred with Shoe's expectation that it was likely due to the low player population, which I believe is the primary culprit here. If you win enough (even against the AI) and get to a given ranking, you are expected to be match up with people of similar ranking.

    The throwing of games is being looked at and will likely be addressed. Honestly though, as someone who tested that, while it is possible to do, the rankings are pretty downwardly sticky making it take a fair amount of effort to drop your ranking significantly. As a new player, for now at least, when there aren't enough new players to match up against, resigning a few games to get to play the AI again (which it's set up that you not play the same people/AI over and over) isn't a bad tactic.

    Totally stand by me comment that "MP just comes down to having more experience and getting more cards." Keep playing, even if you are losing to more advanced players with better gear, you'll rank down and match up against the AI again, allowing you to get more items. In the mean time playing those people can show you some of the tactics you might want to shoot for, or build against and can make you a better player.
  14. Snacksmoto

    Snacksmoto Mushroom Warrior

    Then may I put a challenge to you? Take the default gear on the Adventurers deck, use those specific characters, and add in a truly random assortment of items and treasures (and not from a list that aims for any strategy) that one would get from 15 "1st win" gold chests. Then, using your knowledge of strategies, attempt to compete against players with a curated and strategy focused deck. I believe you will see that matches are heavily weighted against you despite all of your experience.

    Since players are introduced to MP at an early level, the only place to get gear to compete in MP is in MP where new players are regularly destroyed. Coming into the Beta late, I expect a small pool of players and thus a big difference in gear. I'm thinking of post-beta, after players rebuild their inventories, where I think many new players will quickly get turned off of MP after a dozen or two wins and being matched against opponents with clearly superior gear.

    I also stand by my comment that it is not a matter of MP currently having a small pool of players but of a broken ranking system. I don't believe it is a matter of losing to advanced players with better gear but that the Ranking shoots up far too fast and that AI wins should not contribute to Ranking.
  15. Jotun

    Jotun Mushroom Warrior

    Sure you will get stomped. But that doesn't mean you will continue to get stomped on your next try. the whole point is to get the experience to play. You don't need that many items to be competitive at the sub 1k levels. Spend some of the free pizza on 2 or 3 starters packs and you're good to go.

    The whole point is that experience leads to a curated and strategy focused deck, while playing leads to experience. How many times does one need to get stomped before they start to actually try to make their own curated and strategy focused deck based on what their opponents are doing? You're acting like its expected for new players to not grow and learn.

    Yes, an experienced player will be limited by a bad deck. But why would the deck of an experienced player be bad? He gets stomped a few times, he learns what tactics are sound by observing how he gets stomped. Then he tries to replicate the results.

    thats pretty much how everyone gets good.

    "Holy crap i got stomped by that 2 warrior 1 priest combo where the priest hang back and buff/healed while the warriors shredded the hell out of me. Lets try that."

    Then he wins a few battles, tweaks his deck more based on battlefield results. Then he lose a few battles by getting out manoeuvred, so he learns the importance of mobility and adapts by getting more move cards. Then he gets stomped again when he meets encumber wizards, so he adapts and learns the importance of team move skills etc etc.

    Other than encumber wizard builds (whats with ice being so rare??), most of other viable deck strategies are accessible enough and can be made with starter sets. They might not be the most optimized versions available, but they are definitely good enough. you're given how much pizza for free? 150? 200? Either way, its more than sufficient. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that you cannot be competitive at 1k-ish with ratings with just items from starters. You just have to learn what to use. After that you win more items and make better decks and win more items etc etc. Ot just cheat and buy a few more starter sets for the items like me.

    People are way underestimating how useful the items from starter sets are.
  16. Blindsight

    Blindsight Ogre

    When I started MP I went with the three wizard deck. It was standard for quite a while and I did as expected.

    If I had a starting rank I'd likely do decently for at least 50% of my games (as intended by the ranking system) though perhaps less, again due to the population level. Ranking between 1300-1400 (or even around 1200 where I think I am now due to deck testing) I likely wouldn't stand a chance and would get knocked down to 1000 or lower before getting wins against anything other than AI. I'd be happy to build out a starter deck and play a custom game against you if you'd like.

    True, but are also shown how other people are winning. When they play AI they have a good chance at winning and getting more items to improve their deck with.

    Post beta there will be many more players, and thus many more new players who will be matching up against each other. New players will even run into people who have been around longer and thus have better cards but are not as good at the game. The ranking system should roughly balance things out to slightly more than a 50% win percentage when you reach your skill potential. It's a bit more than 50% because you should be slowly upgrading your cards as well as adjusting to the meta and improving your play.

    If there are active players 1000 at each ranking, you would never be matched up against someone other than those at your ranking. If there is only 10 players over the entire ranking system, of course you are going to be matched up poorly.

    Many others have suggested that AI wins don't add to ranking. I don't entirely disagree with this and think it's a very valid outlook. If there were more players you wouldn't have to play against the AI at all. It's just a fail-safe so people CAN actually play MP.
  17. Heretiick

    Heretiick Goblin Champion

    The ELO system that is used here is pretty much a standard across most competitive games. 16 points for someone the same rating as you and adjusted accordingly if there is a difference. I do think that sometimes the rating delta is too high and if I get matched with a player 500 points below me I do feel bad for them. That said, I have lost matches to opponents that were 400 points behind me.
  18. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    It's also a good idea that AI doesnt lose its ranking. Then AI won't get stomped to the ground giving new players an even harder time. AI rank can be constant and can even be changed by devs to accommodate population/meta shift.

    But AI is probably not a big deal once we have more players.

    A better explanation for him is that, for a standard ELO system, average is not 0 but rather 1200. Even really bad person is about 500-600. Everyone should start at 1200 and then it will adjust itself properly. I have no idea why we all start at 0 or whether Blue Manchu's ELO follows the standard ELO or if their average is much lower than 1200.

    It probably got to do with AI, with no AI, everyone is expected to start at the average ELO.
  19. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    Really? I'm pretty sure I met Mom before I crossed the 1k threshold. I know I was facing things like Wall Of Fire, Vicious Thrust, Leadership (pre-nerf), and Impenetrable Nimbus well below 1k.

    Most newbies won't have any left because Gary told them to spend it already.

    How do you make a focused deck if you're constantly getting stomped? Why would you even bother? I stayed out of MP until about level 10, because SP was the only place I could get the items I needed to be competitive.

    Except he can't get any new items because he keeps getting stomped. MP is seriously not fun until you get some decent rares and high level cards (other than what's in the Adventurers starter).
  20. Snacksmoto

    Snacksmoto Mushroom Warrior

    No, my point is that new players have limited access to gear to make said decks when they are recently introduced to MP. It has nothing to do with not expecting new players to grow. After about a dozen... dozen and a half wins, they're getting Rankings up in the 800-900 range and being matched against veteran players only to be shark food. There is a very little amount of battles to understand the basic strategies with the default MP gear before they start getting annihilated. Beginner Rankings shoot up way too fast for the learning curve and pool of Campaign inventory to develop and understand various strategies. Because new players are now up against players with huge inventories and therefore build strategies (which obviously a new player can learn), new players have far more difficulty winning any battles to get the first couple of MP chests to even be able to get gear to build more advanced strategies.

    Beginners at that ranking, realistically, only have the option to leave MP, finish and grind high level Campaign modules for the gear (and gold) in order to build a competitive deck.

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