[Feedback] MP or SP / Growing & easing in new players

But CH *is* going to release new things on a regular basis. New leagues, new maps, new expansions, etc. Not to mention, it's not like everyone's instantly going to have every item the minute some sort of crafting system is implemented - there'd be a curve, and it'd take a long time. I mean, Hearthstone seems to be doing pretty fine with one - people haven't been like "Oh man, I have most of the cards I want now - time to stop playing forever!"

Except MTG totally has a system with the same end result as what I'm suggesting - you can just buy specific cards and build the deck you want. In fact, all the games you listed have this capability - you can buy specific heroes you want in LoL too.

I've spent hours upon hours playing the MtG Planeswalkers games on steam, and they have only a very minimal card unlocking system. Yes, rewards are nice, but ultimately people will stick around if they legitimately enjoy playing the game. And yes, people will eventually leave if nothing new ever comes out, but I don't think BM are planning to abandon CH anytime soon.

 

Who said Card Hunter is going to release new content on a regular basis? New leagues and maps aren't enough to keep people coming back. How long did it take for AotA to come out? And how much did it change the meta? Not much at all. Without a full time designer on the Blue Manchu staff it seems like it would be a long time before new content comes out, especially content that makes people who have everything interested enough in coming back. Heck, even AotA didn't bring back a lot of the old players who left because the game stagnated.

How many people in Hearthstone have all the cards? The Legendary cards are extremely difficult to get and the amount of cards you get is MUCH slower compared to how much stuff you get in Card Hunter.

You can't really buy specific cards in MtG except through third party sources. And someone still has to buy boosters to give Wizards of the Coast their money -- having the ability to buy specific items moves the game into a "pay to win" instead of a "free to play" category. MtG Planeswalker is a completely different game -- it is heavily streamlined and only about 5% of what MtG actually is (and that's over estimating).

What would be the point in buying membership, treasure hunts, or chests if you could get all the items? What purpose would multiplayer chest rewards serve if you could just get the best items? It severely limits monetization methods and ultimately hurts Blue Machu more than not.

 

Another thing I'd heavily suggest explaining that single player and multiplayer items are the same. I've constantly seen people who come in and think that they are separate (heck, I did myself when I first started playing).

The wording of a "starter party" makes it sound like those are things you'd use to start with in multiplayer at the exclusion of anything else (thus not your single player team).

 

I'm interested in the pricing of suggested/proposed starter packs. Should everything be priced at 50p as is right now ? Or are suggestions allowed for pricing tiers, say, I'd like to make a All warrior step attack party without epics and limited to 1 leg per char. How should it be priced ? How were the current parties priced ? Should there be some data, say, via the API/wiki that reveals a value worth of an item in the current meta pool and suggestions made around it ? Will that help to ease MP transition ? Is that good for the longevity of the game, the benefit of the devs and the current populace ?

 

Right now you have to spend considerable time to get a decent collection in Cardhunter. A lot of luck with Randimar's helps but only if you have the gold to spend. Is the goal to short cut that with pizza (i.e., cash) or via some other method?

Isn't the standard free MP game equation something like more time with the game leads to more power, with most allowing a short circuit of money for time? Cardhunter has never really offered any clear short cuts except for the club bonus. Adding better MP parties with say a guaranteed vibrant pain for say 1000+ pizza would seem to be a more blatant shortcut. I'd be curious how many parties it would sell, but this does seem to be a significant deviation from the freemium design choices used so far.

If access to items is a key issue to MP, which I probably tend to agree with, could changes be made to Randimar's to improve availability to higher rarity items? I read a lot of posts from new players complaining that gold isn't the easiest to come by, and I have to expect this is probably a bigger problem for players who primarily play MP.


In theory you could try altering the MP reward chain.

1) Add some gold rewards in to the chain in order to provide MP players with greater access to gold. I don't think this would be too destabilizing since farming for gold is pretty easy at the moment in SP. This doesn't need to be too crazy, but allowing dedicated MP players to pick up an extra couple thousand gold each week should be in line with what you can do farming SP.
2) Add a new MP reward, Randimar's reset tickets. Resetting Randimar's gives you the most chances at getting a potentially good item you need in MP. So why not allow players who play a lot of MP to "see" more items from Randimar's? By making it a player action to rest Randimar's outside of the weekly reset, player's would still have time to save up for an item like they do now. Making it a higher level MP reward keeps it away from most SP campaign focused players as well, it's there but you have to go out of your way to obtain it.

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If you have a goal of adding more competitive pre-built MP decks, it seems to me that 3DC may be the best fit. As a build it primarily relies on rares, and doesn't offer many items that you care about for the SP campaign. It doesn't have to be the "perfect" build of the party, but this seems to be the best MP deck that doesn't create potential item issues.

There's also probably a decent whirlwind mage/dual warrior build you could put together as well. Infused greatclub tops out at rare, add in some all out attack items and a slippery shield and they should be decent. Add in a whirlwind mage (which also mainly requires rare or lower items) and you have a solid deck (though not top tier).

 

Yeah having lots of gold usually only comes to people who grind singleplayer.

 

If more items are introduced, ie, game hits the design limit of 5-10k items or even more, the current item drop rates will skew. A direct shortcut might be a trifle overwhelming (unless there's some form of trading), the best solution (imo) is still the RNG or a decent starter pack. And recurring reviews of the existing packs to ensure competitiveness/value. My 2 cts anyway...

 

Introducing high valued items that you can simply buy means everyone who has worked hard for their items is basically slapped in the face. They spent all that time and effort when they could have just bought them. That's not a good feeling.

As for actual cost, let's take a look.

The Tezkel Elves cost 2590 gold if you were to buy all the items from shops ( (500 * 3 Epic) + (100 * 8 Rare) + (25 * 10 Uncommon) + (5 * 8 Common) ) which would be 518 pizza if converted into gold. That is an INSANE deal and one that shouldn't exist. It was my biggest complaint about new content by far -- they started to sell power plain and simple. There's a difference between selling power (like Whiteglow Flail in the Starter Party) and selling convenience (Membership / pizza converted into gold / chests). All convenience is governed by the RNG, power is not.

Selling Rare or lower items seems fine to me because it is easy to farm them with the current RNG system -- Epics and Legendaries are not really feasibly farmed due to their extremely low drop rate and high number of items. To find a Whiteglow Flail manually it would take you a LONG time of farming (well I've found 4 naturally, but I count myself as a very rare exception as I farmed the level 17 missions on a daily basis).

I'd be all for increasing drops, especially gold in MP and the number of valuable chests in MP (and at least having another Gold chest before the Purple chest). That still abides by the RNG and isn't giving direct power. I'd also be for reducing the costs of chests by halving the current pizza costs (or even more). That still abides by the RNG. But selling specific Epic / Legendary items through Starter Parties is extremely hurtful for Blue Manchu's monetization and for the game in general. Imagine if you could get the best MtG cards with little to no cost -- it would dramatically change the nature of the game.

There is one thing I've suggested before that I think would benefit the game -- allowing the re-roll of Randimar for a cost of some pizza. Unsure on what the cost would be, but that would be a great option for those looking for a specific item while still obeying the rule of RNG.

If you really want people to be able to buy items to play on a level playing field, just have Peasant games made more official. That way you can have the high end be something to climb for.

 

When it comes to epics, I think it's more a matter of which ones. Colossal Hammer is also in Tezkel Elves, but doesn't get much mention. If they were to offer a set with the legendary items: Antioch's Figurine, Bendolth's Pauldrons, and Trained Tactics I doubt there would be a line-up to buy the pack. It's not about the rarity, it's about how good the item is. Whiteglow Flail is a bit too good IMO.
@Stexe - I really like the way you focused the starter party you posted on the previous page. The item mix is also much better than most current starter parties which include junk I'd have replaced by level 7. (She has Mail Of The Martyr. Are Hidebound Boots really the best tokenless pair she has found?)

 

I don't mind good items in starter parties, you can even put Legendaries there if it can help BM getting some more income, I would neither complain nor buy them.
Who do I hate the most in your mind? The one who opens a chest and get a free vibrant pain, then another one in Randimar the week after while some other players haven't seen any in 6 months of intense high level farming? Or the one who gave some money to BM to get a Vibrant Pain in a starter pack keeping the game alive?

You are afraid it's paid to win? I am afraid it's be lucky to win.

 

Possibly, but I'd still stay away from Legendary items simply because they are there to be "collected" for those looking to collect everything. We saw a pretty interesting variety of builds and item usage in my "Rare only" tournament. If we extended that into including an Epic item or two then the number of interesting builds we could create would be huge.

And the reason everyone mentions Whiteglow Flail and not Colossal Hammer is because Whiteglow Flail is in the top 3 best Priest items in the game -- even better than most Legendaries. If Whiteglow wasn't in the Starter Pack people would be complaining about that or the Staff of the Fire God.

We'd need some list of Epics that are on the "no fly" list for inclusion in the Starter Party. Granted this would be highly subjective -- so I'd just say don't include Epics unless absolutely necessary and don't include any Epic that sees play within the top 1600 on a regular basis (like Lochaber Axe or Farzil's Perplexing Horn).

There is a lot of luck involved, but that's the point of a collectible game -- it keeps people interested and always searching because they know that it just takes "one more loot drop" to get the item they want. This is Card Hunter not Card Purchaser.

 

Good point. If starter packs are to be sold, they need to be worth buying. I don't buy starter packs, but Tezkel Elves would be the only one I'd really consider if I did. The difference between it and the others is kind of shocking, and I think it's a move in the right direction. BM has conspicuously avoided even the appearance of pay-2-win, and I applaud them for it. My feedback to them remains that I think Whiteglow is a bit strong for a starter pack, but it's probably too late too change that now. It's also a far cry from selling 'Ready for 1800 Level Play Out of the Box' setups.
I don't know how much income BM is getting, so I can't really comment on that. I want them to get enough to be comfortable and expand a bit, and if they show up on the Fortune 500 list next year we can all celebrate their success. I'd drink a dozen toasts in their honor just to get over the shock.
If BM decided to sell the top legendaries in starter packs I wouldn't buy them either. I think it would be a money-maker in the short term at best because it would undermine the "Luck of the Drop", which is where I believe the real fascination with CCGs lies.
Of course, I could be wrong.
How they make it to the Fortune 500 is their business. I don't care as long as I get my drinks.

 

As a gamer who primarily plays competitive multiplayer games, I have to admit that I had a very difficult time getting into Card Hunter initially. I didn't care too much for single player, and I wanted to jump right into multiplayer. However, I knew I'd be at an enormous disadvantage unless I beat the campaign first. So I did, and it took many months. There were multiple times when I just lost interest and didn't play for weeks. Single player games just aren't my cup of tea. I had to force myself to play campaign at times, with the thought of being able to play multiplayer at the end motivating me.

I would have loved a way to immediately start playing multiplayer, but not with a starter deck. I wanted to be able to customize my party with a wide variety of items, choose my playstyle, and optimize my build. This is impossible to do as the game is currently set up. Your rate of loot acquisition is incredibly slow in multiplayer, and the renown system discourages you from buying any items in the shops until you've beaten the campaign. The result is that those who jump into multiplayer at the beginning are forced to use the starter deck, and they can only modify it with their extremely limited loot drops.

So even if you're someone who is only in the game for the multiplayer, you're basically forced to complete the campaign to increase your renown and fill your inventory with staple items. This turns a lot of people off the game. I have a few friends who are similar to me and love competitive multiplayer games. I'm sure they'd enjoy multiplayer Card Hunter, but because they have no interest in the single player they don't even start playing the game.

So how do we fix this? I don't think that improved starter decks is the right way to approach this. The essence of card hunter is building your own party and customizing it. Starter decks don't encourage this. And it's no fun if everyone at the low levels has a similar build because they all buy the same starter deck. I think that with just a few small changes we could make it much easier for multiplayer enthusiasts to get into the game:

1. Remove the renown system. It's pointless. It just discourages players from being able to customize their builds. It forces them to rely random loot until they've beaten the campaign. The shops should all be accessible from the get go. Honestly, what's the upside to the renown system? New players are already low on gold. There's no reason to force them to pay even higher prices for basic items. I've been puzzled by this concept ever since I started playing.
2. Level 17 and Level 18 commons and uncommons should be available in basic shops. I've actually already made a thread about this. There are a lot of staple multiplayer items that you simply can't buy in shops. The only way to reliably acquire them is to grind Cardstock II. Even after I beat the campaign, I had to grind Cardstock II for hours before I got my bejeweled shortswords and perfect toughnesses. There is no reason to force multiplayer enthusiasts to grind single player.
3. Make the 150 free pizza available to players immediately, and remind players that they can convert this into 750 gold. Right now, you're forced to play the campaign to acquire the free pizza. Additionally, Gary encourages you to spend your pizza on things like chests, treasure hunts, and figures. For multiplayer enthusiasts, these are all largely irrelevant. If you didn't need to play the campaign to get the pizza, players who exclusively play multiplayer wouldn't be at as much of a disadvantage.

These three changes in conjunction would make it much easier to jump into multiplayer. A newbie could create a new account, immediately convert their 150 pizza into 750 gold, and by checking the basic shops every day they'd have easy access to all of the common/uncommon items. They could build a strong deck, customize it to their liking, and play against a variety of opponents who built their own decks. No more starter deck mirror matches. No more grinding single player just to qualify for multiplayer. People like me could play the game the way they want to right off the bat.

None of this would cheapen the loot chase. Rares, Epics, and Legendaries wouldn't be any easier to acquire. Sure it'll be a little easier to complete the first few single player levels, but that wouldn't be a very big issue. If anything these changes will make it easier for players to get into the single player campaign too. Some players get really unlucky with their drops and have a hard time with the campaign as a result. Allowing them to shop for items they need would level the playing field.

Let me know what you all think.

 

I think it is a possibly viable alternative. I do have fears that if the starter parties are too good then everyone will run them at the exclusion of everything else -- although I haven't seen this in the case of the Tezkal Elves (outside of every Priest running a Whiteglow Flail now).

1.) Renown is there to discourage people from buying better versions of items that they would naturally find or have access to at certain parts of the game. There are a few items that this matters for, but generally it is fairly niche. You can get renown for playing multiplayer games and don't need to play single player at all technically. I'm unsure about removing the renown system entirely -- I'd have to investigate more on the impact of this on player progression.

2.) As for level 17 and 18 commons and uncommons in the store? I definitely agree. I never did understand why they were excluded... maybe increase their price to double or something? Is there such a big power gap between level 16 and level 18 that they need to be farmed instead of bought? No clue on why that restriction exists honestly.

3.) I think a lot of new players would get frustrated if they converted their pizza to gold only to find out how exclusive pizza is and how easily available gold is. I purchased lots of starter parties with my pizza (about 250 to 300 pizza worth) and later realized how useless they actually are and felt ripped off (especially when Tezkal Elves came out).

Overall, the current tutorial system that introduces players to the game is pretty heavily flawed. It favors in-game immersion with Gary and Melvin over functionality. Just watching the Yogscast and see how confused they are over the idea of "wielding multiple weapons and a shield at the same time," the fact they don't right click to inspect cards, and clicking on an inventory slot to auto search by slot-type.

I'm working on a "new player guide video" at the moment. Are there any things I should include that stands out as important things for new players to learn that aren't in the tutorial? Right now here is my list:

• Right clicking to look at card
• Clicking on inventory slot to sort store
• Increasing animation speed
• Changing card pausing
• Changing multiplayer sounds
• Equipping items (slots are just there for cretain types, don't think of it like a traditional RPG where you can only hold 1 weapon at a time)

 

Renown is there so you couldnt create 10000 accounts, see which one of them has VP in it at play with that one.

 

Why not have renown only affect Epic and Legendary items then?

 

Have the devs said that? Seems like an incredibly weak argument.

 

I agree with the sentiment that ideally the game would be more balanced so that power items like Vibrant Pain are not such a big deal, but in the absence of that, I think some sort of high cost crafting system would be beneficial.

The argument I see here against this is that it would discourage those players who have put a lot of time into grinding and farming; I would propose a system that would instead reward those players.

How about a system where (20? 25? 15? 10?) items of the same rarity could be crafted to create another item of that rarity? This would still encourage farming and hunting (getting that many Legends can take a while), but would allow both collectors and competitive players to find those items which they just can't seem to get their hands on.