Dwarven Control Wizards

Discussion in 'Deck Building' started by Scared Little Girl, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. Won't be surprised if top ladder is exclusively CC Wizards soon, possibly with an exception for someone with 2-3 VPs or something across 2 warriors. Card cycling "drawbacks" makes wizards too strong, and is another oversight that should be corrected but won't. The sad irony is that card draw would be a viable counter, and with the removal of card draw, Wizard's will reign supreme (with only possible exception in my eyes what I listed previously) until Devs do what they need to do and fix drawback cards to actually be drawbacks. As it is, drawback cards may as well be traits on wizard items.

    I've spent the last week trying everything I can under the sun, and I just don't see an effective way to counter 3 control wizards in-game currently, without VPs.
  2. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    Jon has stated that he thinks trait cycling could prove too strong and that the team is watching it. So we'll see what happens on that end.

    I know I'm not at the "top"—a relative term—but I've been playing in the top 200 the last few days. I've encountered quite a few SLG-inspired builds. Sometimes they win, sometimes I win. I think I have a win rate over 50% against triple dwarf control though. I have no Vibrant Pains (no warriors at all in fact). Admittedly, this anecdote could be fueled by:
    • good luck
    • bad luck on my opponents' parts
    • bad play on my opponents' parts
    • a good match-up for me, because the aggro-combo nature of my build can often guarantee the death of an opponent's wizard before any retaliation is possible.

    All I can say is, team moves and Immovable are fantastic in the current meta, especially in conjunction with each other.
    spacedust and Bearson Onyx like this.
  3. There are always going to be warning signs when a build is OP and needs to be fixed by the devs:
    1) Are a disproportionate amount of players using the build to success
    2) Are a disproportionate amount of top-rated players using the build to success
    3) Are builds that were previously successful now failing in head-to-head matchups with the build

    It should be very obvious that:
    1) Trembling staves + card cycling for wizards is leading to a gross imbalance in the metagame
    2) An adjustment is necessary if the goal is for play to be competitive

    Separate Issues:
    1) Tweaking this will highlight another ability that is broken and needs a fix - nimble strike.

    1) Fix itemization (again) - Trembling Staves, Vibrant Pains. The best item in the game remains VP in my eyes. An entirely broken item. And the best wizard staff should have an actual cost rather than simply 0 tokens.
    2) Fix "drawback" cards and card cycling in general
    PaladinGP likes this.
  4. neoncat

    neoncat Feline Outline

    Oooooh... an all-wizards meta sounds great, as soon as I get back to having time to play. Time to dust off all those smoke bombs. :D
  5. Kablizzy

    Kablizzy Orc Soldier

    Hmm. Maybe it's just the bracket I'm in at the moment, but my 2x Warrior, 1x Priest has gone undefeated since the new maps went up. I haven't faced trip wizards very much, but even when I do, there's enough in my build to counter it out and make life hard. Basically, if I get a turn next to a wizard, that's pretty much it. Perhaps my build is also a bit tailored to the inevitability of trips control wizards.

    Edit: Sorry, one loss, not undefeated. But through 15 games, that's not too terrible on maps like these.
  6. Nim

    Nim Mushroom Warrior

    Good luck with that one. I'm glad you're doing well with your deck, but I think I've had a Warrior standing next to me for a full turn maybe once in the last twenty or so games.
  7. Groggolo

    Groggolo Kobold

    Yes I am far from playing high ranked games, but I watched some in the last days and great majority involve control wizard parties.
    So what are the best counters?

    Outside of smoke bombs, I can think of missile blocks and shimmer auras?
    Any other?
  8. The best counter would be to properly balance the game. Failing that, wind cards are the primary counter.
    Pilgrim Bailey likes this.
  9. They are easy to beat. Anyone could make a build that wins 90% of matches against them, simply by taking all the anti-wizard cards in the game. The difficult part is to make a build that beats the wizards and everyone else. This is the key of control wizards: they are so versatile that you pretty much have to build a specific counter but at the same time become weak against many other builds.

    Also Vibrant Pain is not the biggest threat, not even close. I have beaten top-5 players who have Vibrant Pain, without losing a single HP in the process. Arrogant Armor is another item that people assume is the perfect counter, but it's not because it's easy to remove with Short Perplexing Ray.

    Non-spell cards that have been the biggest problem for me are Immovable and Hard To Pin Down. Immovable can be devastating unless you can stack effects and push it out. Hard To Pin Down sucks because it acts basically as a cantrip movement and lets the warrior hit hard during its next run, although Toughness might save you.

    As for spells, there are many counters, with Counterspell of course being the most powerful one. WW and WWE can be a problem but they are too random imo.

    If we look at the classes, hands down the most dangerous class is other Wizards. Warriors and Priests are not that dangerous, although they could be if they are supported by a Wizard.

    I think that the best counter would be a team of 3 control wizards that have replaced some of the control cards with anti-spell cards. This would give you a huge advantage over other control wizards, but it would also still be effective against other teams.

    It could also be that they are missing one or more of the key cards you need to make this build work. For example you can play this build without volcanoes and SPR's but it's probably not as effective. My point is that if you are able to beat lower ranking "copycats", it does not necessarily mean you can beat the "genuine" version of this build more than 50% of time. Then again I don't know what build you are using, and you could very well have a good counter. The fact that you have Immovable is definitely a big threat.

    Some thing here. It is possible that you have been fighting lesser versions of this build. Just getting a turn next to a wizard is usually not enough to win the match.
  10. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    Right. Honestly though playing the build correctly seems more important than having the exact # of SPRs in deck. Immovable is probably the Achilles heel of the build so yeah. :)
  11. Yeah, that too. There are lots of tricks you learn after playing a while. For example I didn't really know the best way to use volcanoes until I had about 50+ matches under my sleeve. And things like using WoW on your own team is something newbies probably won't do.
    Flaxative likes this.
  12. Player1

    Player1 Mushroom Warrior

    The lite/cheap version with just cold + WoW is fairly trivial to counter. Immovable for WoW and push teams for the encumber = dead wizards.

    The combination of SPR + WoW is a reliable and complete counter to warriors (you can argue which one is more OP). The devs need to take a stance on those 2 cards. They are too good because they trade 1 for 2. Card advantage is the most important thing in game, just look at draw decks. This is also why VP is also so good, since its a 2 card in 1 (move + attack).

    I think that in the future, assuming no balance changes, warriors would be extinct at the top of ladder once SPR's rarity does not become the limiting factor to wizard builds. Also the best chance to beat this build seems to another wizard heavy build. Either 3 wizs or 2 wiz + 1 priest.
    Flaxative likes this.
  13. I've made that exact point either in this thread or in others; its possible to counter 3 wiz, but not to do so in a way that allows you to be competitive vs other comps, whereas 3 wiz is competitive against nearly everything - resulting in wiz comps dominating the hierarchy of [active] players.

    As to VP, it still remains broken, even against 3 wiz. You just have to run some combo of other abilities that protects against SPR, WoW. If you aren't playing a wiz cheese combo, its even stronger.
  14. Yes, it's definitely broken and hands down the most ridiculous item in the game atm, and a big threat when combined with other cards like you said. I just meant that Vibrant Pain by itself is not enough to consistently beat control wizards.
    Flaxative and Pilgrim Bailey like this.
  15. neoncat

    neoncat Feline Outline

    I won't have reliable internet / time to play for a couple weeks yet, but perhaps someone would like to test out a build I used rather successfully a few map rotations ago?

    "Wellspring Artillery"
    - 1 priest + 2 wizards, all human
    - use draw racials (priest: Advanced Flexibility, wizard: Perfect Tactics)
    - cram the priest full of Unholy Wellspring
    - load the wizards with long-range (8-10) spells like Frost Jolt, Sizzling Bolt, and Dissolve Armor. (Basically, load up with Staff Of Winter, Furnace Staff, and Destructive Wand.) Throw in a Locket Of The Gale or two to finish it out.

    The wizards can hit from beyond the range of SPR, and even WoW, on several of the maps. Dissolve Armor takes care of Toughness and Arrogant Armor. (Once upon a time, I made a full-health dwarf warrior go *poof* during a single round, though that did involve a fairly good draw.)
    Flaxative likes this.
  16. Nim

    Nim Mushroom Warrior

    Tip: For anyone looking to increase their odds against Wizard Control without leaving themselves crippled against other comps Slippery Shield and Sticky Slippers are two of your best pickups. Immovable and Hard To Pin Down are among hardest cards in the game for WC to play around and both provide plenty of utility even against non-Wizard teams.
    Kablizzy and Flaxative like this.
  17. ElShafto

    ElShafto Goblin Champion

    Problem is that the most Wellspring you can have is four (3 divine items + armor) and 4/33 is no guarantee you'll get one in a match.
  18. Bearson Onyx

    Bearson Onyx Goblin Champion

    Most people who are devoted to this build run Axe Of The Dark Soul so max you can have is actually 8 which is not bad at all. When I played it though (a long long time ago in beta) I actually used Savage Curse instead of Unholy Wellspring, less because of the 1 extra damage but more because of its longer duration. the discarding isn't that bad when you're a mage because you're mostly functioning as a turret and movement is less important than a melee character.
    Having said that, Savage Curse appears on rarer items so it's harder to stack.
  19. Vakaz

    Vakaz Guild Leader

    8 actually. Two Axe Of The Dark Soul, one Jet Armor,, and then your choice of Charcoal Talisman, Demon Charm Of 7th Circle, Pungent Incense, Tome Of Sanctity, or the tokenless (and pretty bad) Tome Of The Withering Source/The Deadonomicon.

    I'd probably take out the Jet Armor for a tokenless and then grab Advanced Flexibility though, for a playable total of 7.

    My club membership is up and I'm trying out goofier builds lately, so I might give this a go in the near future.

    [Edit: Bearson Onyx got to this first, sorry for the double correction]
    Bearson Onyx likes this.
  20. Vakaz

    Vakaz Guild Leader

    So I tried the artillery build out today for 7-8 games, and the two big problems with it seem to be consistency and viability against warriors. Even with triple Advanced Flexibility, the priest usually draws crud. And melee teams built to fight wizards dominate it, as it has to drop a lot of the control for direct damage. It -does- do really well against other wizard teams, but that's about it.

    Interesting build idea, but without a bunch of cleric legendaries like Knife Of St. Blenko or Skull Of Savage Iljin, I don't think it's a very viable build.

Share This Page