[Discussion] Knowing opponent's deck composition by looking at cards

Discussion in 'Card Hunter General Chat' started by progammer, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    Sorry if this discussion has been made already, the search box did not turn up any useful thread.

    After making my way to 1300 rating on MP, I wasn't aware until recently that I can know which item a certain card from. This information is only available when the card is in play or revealed in the opponent's hand. The battle log will not keep this information. An example of what I'm talking about: (Note: Pause card play can be enabled to view this easier)

    There are of course pros and cons to have this information available to your opponent.
    • Pro 1: Help new players to MP learn the existence of new item/card composition. Nothing feels better than having a moment of "WTF this card is totally OP, oh turns out that item sucks with that drawbacks, it must be fun or him to build for it .. etc.."
    • Pro 2: Add a level of complexity to the strategy. Knowing which item your opponent have (and in just 2 rounds could completely build their opponent's deck) can be very beneficial in certain ways. For example, knowing that your opponent activate a Run from Advance Command can alert you to the possibility of Sprint Run. The opposite is also true for knowing that their warrior doesn't have a boot with Sprint and their Human support wont be able to Team Run/Sprint to you. With the number of card in draw and discard pile freely available, you can even predict which card the opponent will have next turn when the draw pile is low. This certainly raise the skill ceiling and more guessing game to the strategy, which brings up the cons:
    • Con 1: Sometimes too much information is just too much information. While enemy deck reconstruction is possible, its still beyond what normal human brain can handle. I'm sure we can argue that anyone with perfect memory will gain a benefit in any kind of card game, but for an online game like Card Hunter, a bot can be easily made to quickly do this with ease. Anyone without access to an item database (or said bot) will be easily at an disadvantage in this game.
    • Con 2: Similarly, by abusing every advantage available to you, each turns will drags out while people try to figure out their opponent's deck and guess which card will come next. This remove the fast-paced nature the game is built for. A time limit each turn could combat this and a script could automate the guessing game, I don't feel like it is fun to wait every turn until the end.
    Personally, I have to side with the cons. While the information is freely available to me, I never use it to its full benefit. The element of surprise actually make matches more fun for me. Rebuilding their deck is too much of a hassle for me to consider it mid-play.
    What do you all think about the fact that this information is available ?
    Stefan and nickv2002 like this.
  2. Fry

    Fry Ogre

    Cons outweigh the pros, IMO. I'd prefer the item name to be removed from the cards. If new players want to learn what items certain cards come from, there's a wiki for that.
  3. Phaselock

    Phaselock Bugblatter

  4. progammer

    progammer Ogre

  5. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    It started out as a bug report because we'd been told that this was a game feature.

    I don't expect that I'll learn every item in the game, but some things are memorable. If my eyes happen to wander onto the words "Booming Ring" on someone's measly Force Bolt, then I'll know what's coming next because I love that item and remember it.

    As you can see in that thread, people were more concerned about the "bot" issue, which would render your personal memory capacity irrelevant.
    skip_intro likes this.
  6. Zalminen

    Zalminen Hydra

    I'd say it's a good thing that the cards tell the item names.

    The wiki is certainly highly useful, but that particular information should still be available in-game as well.
    Neofalcon and skip_intro like this.
  7. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    Is it sad that I've memorized almost every item in the game? It's for the very reason this thread is stated in con2 where I try to predict my opponent.
    progammer likes this.
  8. nickv2002

    nickv2002 Mushroom Warrior

    I'd rather that items names didn't show in MP. I'd it seems like the game should more about play skill (and luck) than being good at memorizing items or taking lots of time to look every item your opponent uses up on the wiki... (The first is a chore and the second just slows down gameplay). If you can deduce the items by composition of cards your opponent plays that's great, but specifically naming an item seems too far.
    Stefan and Blindsight like this.
  9. xienwolf

    xienwolf Goblin Champion

    Honestly it would be trivial to write a java script where you click on an item slot and assign the contents, having the deck filled in for you on a side window, then click on the deck to check off what cards are played. You would then have an at-a-glance view of precisely what is remaining in their deck. Providing such a boost for MP capability to those aware of/with access to such a third party website is not a great move for competitive gaming.
    Stefan likes this.
  10. nickv2002

    nickv2002 Mushroom Warrior

    I noticed today that item names are no longer shown for card played by MP opponents. This is a welcome change so it seems like this issue is pretty much closed.

    You can still deduce deck composition a bit just by looking at the cards played but that's un-changeable and will become more difficult as more items/cards are added to the game.
  11. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    I like it because it lets you know what fun gear has specific cards but at the same time when people start scripting stuff its going to annoy me.
  12. Keyser

    Keyser Goblin Champion

    That's what http://wiki.cardhuntria.com is for. :D
  13. icaaryal

    icaaryal Kobold

    Here's the deal. I've played a lot of the Pokemon TCG. When playing an opponent and they lay out their first Pokemon, experience can tell you what kind of deck they are going to be running. There is no reason to hide the name of the card or item and force someone to go dig through the wiki just to look it up. That's just obtrusive to the players. Figuring out an opponent's deck may give you an advantage, but when both players have the same advantage, it is a balanced situation. Ultimately, someone can have the current flavor-of-the-month deck, you can see that, but that doesn't mean they'll play it correctly/well. Hiding the card/item names is not a good idea.
  14. Keyser

    Keyser Goblin Champion

    The issue isn't so much knowing the kind of deck (which I know pretty soon without the item names on the cards). The issue is opening up the possibility of people using scripts to know exactly what is left in the other player's decks. For that reason, I think hiding the item names is a good move.
    Wozarg, nickv2002 and Stefan like this.
  15. Forlorn

    Forlorn Orc Soldier

    I agree, this is a good move to prevent script-kiddies from gaining unfair advantages.

    Besides, as it is right now, when I see a wizard use "Firestarter" trait, "GEE I WONDER IF HE'S A FIRE WIZ?" Not too hard to figure out.

    Conversely, just because a wizard plays winds of war does not allow an opponent to see what arcane item he is using and look it up to find the other two cards in his deck. Now, players will still be able to deduce the majority of an opponents deck but no longer the entire deck.
    Stefan likes this.
  16. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    Are you sure you are not looking at the battle log ? Currently it does not show in battle log but still show in hand and during activation.
  17. icaaryal

    icaaryal Kobold

    Same thing applies to other TCGs. Again, referring to the Pokemon TCG, based on whatever they made their active and bench, you could see that someone is going to play a Magnezone, ZPS, Durant or whatever deck. But you might not know the EXACT composition because people might use different Trainer cards. Some decks definitely have this many of this or that card, but that matters little when it's all about whether or not and when the cards come out. I don't consider that knowing someone's deck down to a tee (scripting or otherwise) is really going to matter. It's about how they play it and how you respond as the cards fall.
  18. Blindsight

    Blindsight Ogre

    Right, but again the issue with with scripts being able to compile the list of cards and give even a rough estimate of the chance of them drawing attacks etc. Thic can give a large advantage. Personally I'd rather not know or show what cards come from each item.
    Stefan likes this.
  19. nickv2002

    nickv2002 Mushroom Warrior

    Yeah I was looking at the log; at least it's not shown there. You're probably right that they still show during activation (can't check now). Assuming they do, that's a problem still.
  20. Generica

    Generica Mushroom Warrior

    There's absolutely an advantage to be had by looking up your opponent's weapons to know what his attack cards are and what he might be able to do. This puts my OCD side at war with my lazy side and I have to stop myself from looking up items before i've memorized every card and item in the game.

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