Community Balancing Act

Hi guys!

There are some things in the game that make the game worse than it could be. Like Vibrant Pain—because it's that much better than everything else—or Whirlwinds—because they literally break the game by multiplying the variance by such a huge amount.

The devs haven't done anything about these issues in ... what, over 9 months of the game being live? A few balance changes here and there, Inspiring Presence got nerfed based on speculation while the things that actually make the game less fun run rampant?

I say, "no more!"

Blue Manchu has its hands full, no doubt, and is prioritizing other issues. That didn't stop us from starting peasant, or the PvP season. And there's no reason why we can't take game balance into our hands as well.

Here's how it works:

• If you see someone running Vibrant Pain...
• If you see someone play a Whirl effect...
• (other triggers to come based on discussion)

... give them a verbal warning encouraging them not to do what they're doing. If they continue, [suck it up and yell at Jon who apparently prefers that you blame him than said abusive players]!

Right now a lot of the game, especially in the upper few hundred elo tiers, is defined by what's basically nonsense. And I say this not meaning to insult the devs, because like, it's not their fault @Heretiick convinced them to keep Whirlwind in the game during beta, and it's not their fault that they're too busy to fix their mistakes after the fact. But I can't even count the number of times I've talked to an opponent and been like, "hey, do you enjoy flipping the table three times in a row and then using Nimble Strike?"—to which the response is always some variation on, "if you can't beat'em, join'em."

Here's the thing.

You don't need to join them.

You can beat them!

Resist. Refuse. Reject.

EDIT
At @Latheviosin's suggestion, I'll be accruing a list of players who have joined a pact to not run the things mentioned above. The idea is that if we show other players agreeing to take part, it'll be easier to convince more people to join in on the fun.

List
Flaxative, Latheviosin, CT5, Scofield, RevenantX, Tuknir, NaRox, Magic Elves, Duke Tresnor, Kalin, Sir Veza, Huey Laforet, Ghostbrain, Robauke

 

Maybe when the season ends and there isn't a reason to climb in Elo other than the status symbol.

Even then, it is hard to spread a message like that and enforce. Plus, VP/WW/WWE isn't the problem, it is more systemic than that. Without VP/WW/WWE people will run Lochaber + MF. That was already strong before and would just be made even stronger with the lack of WW/WWE to throw them off of their game.

 

I don't want to remove everything strong, and this isn't meant to be a clean solution to all balance issues. I still want the devs to act on your feedback, as I'm sure you know.

But, it's a resolution, it's a pact, to resist the cheese and let everyone know it.

 

This one will be a controversional post, I'll try to express my opinion clearly:

1) I agree that those cards and items, especially Vibrant Pain, need a nerf. I think most of us will agree on this one.
2) If these cards/items were banned/nerfed, the nerf shouldn't stop there, because there are other op items that should be nerfed too (like Toughness, Winds of War, maybe Mass Frenzy, etc.) which will be the replacement if only Vibrant Pain and WW got banned.
3) I do blame the devs. The fact that they are busy with other things such as leagues isn't an excuse at all for not having done anything for nine months about it. Everything that happens in this game is their responsability, because they are running this company and they are the ones that have the power to make the changes. Players can only make suggestions, but the devs clearly don't hear these suggestions because we have been asking for these nerfs since forever.
4) Fun is a very subjective thing. So if someone says that they are having fun using them, then you can't argue with that because everyone has different tastes and that's ok. The clear example is FS: some people love it, some people hate it. In my case, I don't have fun because I use WWe, what is fun to me is seeing how high I can go without Vibrant Pain, and given that I have very lame items in comparison with most of the high ranked players, WWe is the only way I have to be competitive there.
5) I don't think it's ethic to ask players to give verbal warnings or reporting them for using those cards/items because of 2 things I have mentioned above: a) they are not banned, and b) they could be having legit fun using them, because what isn't fun for someone may be fun for another person.
6) I don't think anything would make you less popular (as you said in the lobby chat). Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

1) Yeah
2) Yeah, force the ball to get rolling
3) Maybe, blame is a useless thing a lot of the time, especially when we can just work on making things better
4) Fair, fun is a bad word to use
5) Ethics and rules don't always align
6) Haha

 

Alright, I wrote a long post about why it's a bad idea and that Jacques' 3) is correct.... but I'm not posting it (yet?).

What if we really all agreed not to play some items? I think BM would make some nerfs/changes to existing cards/items.

(I'm not playing a VP or any WWs anyway but I would if I had a VP lol. And I'm not in TOP 3 either any more as you can see.)

 

Right?
(EDIT: My "Right?" was in response to Feleran's "Dude." -- since, Feleran's post turned into a real post!)

 

I'd report people for following this thread by the way. Calling people out for doing things within the context of the game *and* reporting people for abusive behavior by following the rule within the game is not the solution.

 

So you'd report us for reporting people.
Get any blacker, pot?
The rules are insufficient. This is a resistance. I think that's clear. And now you've said your piece as have I; I will follow Bandreus's advice.

 

One is within rules, one is not. This isn't a democracy -- it is Blue Manchu's game first and foremost. If you don't like it you can leave... that's the strongest protest you can do within the confines of the rules.

And I could understand if you made this protest after the season is over, but YOU are a huge contributing factor by having the season still running and asking for this. I'm only playing super competitively because there is a forum title and special figures on the line (I don't care about the chests -- I can get those through Leagues).

Might be something to consider in future seasons.

 

If BM thinks I'm breaking rules, I'm sure they'll have the decency to inform me themselves.

You don't need to tell me that they're mad about this before they've even woken up and seen it

 

Well, you should wait and get feedback from them before posting it. You're trying to incite a revolt that potentially calls out specific people. Thought you should run it past them first.

 

I think you should check with Jon before ever replying to me in a thread.

 

(Was that ridiculous? I think it was.)

 

A misguided means to what would be a noble end.

I admit I'm of the "Can't beat 'em, then join 'em" ilk. I got tired of hovering around 1300 with Spears-Of-Darkness-R-Us losing constantly to Vibrant Pain and Whirlwind spam. That said, abusing the Report function doesn't seem like a productive use of anyone's time. A more effective protest would be to simply stop playing the game.

I don't want it to come to that, but the fact that success in the game hinges to a degree on how many VPs/FSs/Whirlwinds you can get your hands on makes playing at higher ELO unappealing. I know that I'm locked into one of two builds (maybe three if I had the items for it) if I want to stay anywhere above 1500-ish.

As for game balance, there is always going to be imbalance in a game of this nature. It's just a lot more glaring when players have no way of acquiring said imbalanced items aside from "play the game enough and it MIGHT drop in a chest or it MIGHT show up in Randimar's". The aim shouldn't be for perfect balance; it should be for promoting an environment where one could come up with a viable build that doesn't hinge on one or two cards.

 

Good one Flax
But let's try to help as much as possible. Stexe's thread from January has quite many good ideas already. Let's finish it up so that all sorts of builds could reach the very top if built and played well? Less work for BM to do and bigger chance that they change something.

 

My balance thread from January ( http://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/balance-balance-suggestion-list-january-2014.4967/ ) is a little out of date. I'd change a few things with the expansion and add a few (Dodge is extremely strong on specific maps, as you well know since you ran tons of it).

Additionally, I was working on a "cards to buff list" to make the meta game more interesting, but stopped doing tests due to the start of the season (where I only use the strongest cards). But there are a few low hanging fruit cards to buff like Surging Shield Block that could be included with the nerfs. I might go back to the buff list ( http://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/discussion-cards-and-items-to-buff.5319/ ) when the season ends, but testing and coming up with ideas to buff is a lot more difficult when I'm playing at the highest Elo levels. My free time is getting less and less as I spend it looking for a career. You know what they say, "it is a full time job looking for a full time job."

 

Uh, how? If I stop playing the game, everything I care about with regard to the game comes crumbling down and I win nothing.

And yes things will always be imbalanced. But you can rein in the grossest offenders, and the things about the game that just make it worse (my main issue with WW isn't that it is too strong, but that it multiplies the variance in the game to a ridiculous extent).

Feleran - as I've said in a million places, I agree that the things on Stexe's list need to be looked at.

 

I'm not advocating to stop playing, I'm just saying the most effective way of protest is to stop playing. That's the basic premise of a boycott. BMC earns no money if nobody is playing their game.

 

Yeah, and we can go there if this proves ineffective. Don't need to escalate 100% in one day!