[Comment] Multiplayer kind of ruined my Single Player campaign...

Hi there,

I've been playing CH for about 3 days and I have been enjoying it a lot. But yesterday I was guided to the multiplayer section, where I received a Free Adventurers Starter Party and was introduced to multiplayer games. Unfortunately, that kind of spoiled my single player experience, and I'll tell you why:

Before I purchased the Starter Party, I was enjoying questing for the "item build up", and I was carefully thinking on what items I needed to upgrade, on where to spend my hard-earned money, etc. But with the Starter Party I received around 15 very powerful, high-level items, and suddenly my best items became close to junk. That took away my will to hunt for better items: now all I have to do is to level up as quickly as I can in order to use the items I have freely received...

My suggestion would be to make only the reward items from multiplayer available on Single Player - not the items included on the Starter Parties. I know there will be players (power players) who will want all the best items of the game as fast as they can get them, but for players who enjoy the progression and the build up of their items and characters (like me), mixing multiplayer and single player items generated more frustration than joy.

Other than that, congrats on the good work, boys!

Mauricio

 

I'm sorry that it's messing with your gameplay, but I believe the effect is smaller than you think.

People post about this every now and then when they're surprised by the event. But as you say, the items are restricted: it hardly matters that they are "powerful, high-level items" if you can't use them yet. And then it goes in the other direction, too: your best items aren't junk, because the power token system means you will STILL want low-token items in the ENDGAME.

For actual usefulness, here are some comments from last time (in a "bug" thread):

The rest is a matter of perception. If you feel bothered that these items are "too powerful," and you are now literally playing just so you can get to use them, well, I'm stuck with the same conclusion that I gave the last person: I can't help any further.

 

Still haven't found the will to play Card Hunter again. I guess that gaining several level 18 items destroyed the sense of progression that made me so into the game, a few days ago. If the devs still think it's a good idea to keep this feature after beta, I would recommend them to at least warn the player that he will gain a bunch of top-level items when he opens his free Starters Party...

Cheers!

 

Several lvl 18 items meaning like 4? That said if you don't like the items don't use them and most of those items are really really crap for their level and nothing in the starters go past rare. I could see your point if it tricked you into spending money on items making you feel like you bought power somehow but all it does is give you a minute amount of items that are very weak or specialized for the strategy of the party. It really shouldn't mess with you in a big way and if it does selling the items to the store gives you a minute gold boost at worst.

I'm not trying to belittle your concern just pointing out my own thoughts about it and possible solutions to the problem.

 

While I didn't feel that the multiplayer starter pack mechanic "ruined" anything, I do think it adds a good deal of confusion for a new player.

Let me explain. Your adventuring and you make it to level 5 or whatever it is where multiplayer is introduced. You've got most of the basic game mechanics figured out and are starting to get the hang of deck composition as a whole and the importance of really knowing what's in your deck. Then, BAM! The game leads you into three high level characters with deck sizes twice of what your used to and all sorts of new (and sometimes difficult to understand) cards.

But why?

On one hand, I understand that having all multiplayer characters sitting at the same level is a good idea as it levels the playing field. On the other hand, if we've got a rank and matchmaking system isn't that enough?

Why not just block new players from using MP until level X, and then open it up giving them a ridiculously low MP rating to begin with. Won't they then get to experience multiplayer in a much more comfortable setting using their own characters and items while still competing against similarly leveled and experienced players?

I know I would have enjoyed my first MP experience had it been with characters I was comfortable using.

 

Tier tends to be more important than level. Common level 18 items using tokens, while they may seem powerful at the time, will probably be obsolete by the time your sp characters can actually use them. Most of the items you get from the pack are not actually very good, despite how they appear when you first see high level items.

 

I can see the 'pratical' way to deal with this; I know I can simply sell all the items I received and dismiss all the new characters. But receiving level 18 items while at level 5 (or 6) 'broke the spell' for me, and I'll explain why:

Until I was thrown in multiplayer, I was slowly discovering the game. First shop had lots of items, then a second shop opened (with very expensive items), then a third shop opened. Better and better items slowly being revealed to me - a very interesting experience.

Suddenly, I receive top-level items. Instead of discovering level 7, then level 10, then level 13 items, I got introduced to level 18 items. The pinnacle, items that would be stronger than all the level 7, level 10 and level 13 items that I was yet to meet in the game.


Now I check my inventory, see a wizard's equipment that is way better than any other thing I possess and think: I need a blue (or gold) token to use this! Forget about the items I already have or the ones I will collect in the near future - none will come close to this. Progression's sense is broken: I just need the tokens, nevermind discovering level 7, level 10, level 13...

I know most people will not be bothered by this, but I am sure the more "story-driven" folk (like me) probably will...

Cheers!

Mad Hab

 

I think you are not alone in your feelings as Sir Knight demonstrated. I'm sorry it broke the spell for you and I would only hope that you can get past it and see how good this game really can be.

I don't think there is much need to lock multiplayer away once you have finished the tutorial. Probably it would be sufficient to alert players to the existence of multiplayer (as is done now) but add a big sign that pops up that says "Warning: MP items and characters will be added to your SP account. Proceed only if this isn't a problem for you." Then the MP tutorial would initiate on the first instance of entering MP.

 

This is simply not true not only are there lvl 13 items that are better than many lvl 18 items there is also a reason to keep using low level items as you have a finite amount of talents. I get what you are saying about being disillusioned and that is a concern they could possibly putt up a warning saying that pvp is done with max level characters and suggest you keep progressing. But at some point they have to introduce you to pvp and lvl 5 seemed like a good point which i personally agree with since not everyone wants to pve.

 

I somewhat have to agree with the sentiment behind why the OP posted:

Playing with the "real" items in MP makes it painful to go back to my boring stuff in SP.

In MP, I only have 1 card that does less than 6 damage as I recall. My movement capability is insane, and my armor is awesome. Swap back over to SP, and suddenly I cannot equip almost any of that gear, and I make due with what I can scrape together, all the while lamenting the loss of power.

When I die in SP, I don't think "Well, let me try this slightly different build" until AFTER I think "Well my MP deck would have won this without being touched..."

Yes, I will get there eventually. Yes, I am learning a few new strategies by using alternate cards. But I still get what the OP is saying.

 

Yeah, I kind of feel some of you guys are missing the point.

We all understand that sure, you can just ignore the new items and get over it.

But, is it really necessary to drop all that new loot on new players in the first place at all?

 

It allows you to actually compete in MP with a moderately balanced set of items. If you actually take the time to look through the items you realize that most of them cannot be used by lower levels and the ones that can aren't that great. Obviously one would need to level to be able to use them, and as you level up and get more items you come to find out that those seemingly great high level items aren't actually that great for their level. Of course to level up in the first place you need good items that you can actually use at that level.

If you tried messing with your mp party's gear you might realize that even at high levels you still require lower level items in your loadout, and the better selection you have the more successful and versatile you can be. Also if you take some time to try and climb the MP ladder a bit, you will likely quickly get slaughtered by high level cards and tactics that you never knew existed, reinforcing that your minor selection of mediocre items from the MP starter pack is actually extremely limited and again, not that big of a deal.

 

Honestly I felt the exact opposite. When I got the high level items, items whose level was higher than my own. When I played MP and had level 18 characters and the game told me all my characters would be leveled up to max for multiplayer. When my characters had 8 power tokens, 4 gold and 4 blue. I wasn't discouraged from single player. I was encouraged and motivated to get my party to level 18 so they would have all those power tokens and life and I could collect all the different and better equipment. I even went back and started over in single player around level 10 so i could have a party I would enjoy more. I foolishly sold my starting adventure characters because I didn't realize I could rename them. I didn't go back to play in MP until I had a vast collection from single player so that I could build teams that I wanted to play instead of slowly editing the starting adventure pack.

The benefit of introducing the multiplayer so early is that other than a psychological affect good and bad it has in players there is little effect on single player campaign. On the flip side those that would rather not play single player at all and have a much stronger competitive nature where collecting items by beating real opponents is much more enjoyable to them; they can jump into that experience right away after the initial tutorial and don't have to wait. I can see how a warning might be useful but I feel the game more or less already does that.

 

Well, I didn't see any warning: I was just gifted a party and some high-level items I could use on SP. Maybe MP could have two tiers: Low Level (say, level 6 or 9) and High Level (18). I must say I enjoy low-level battles a lot - even more than high-level battles.

And again - I know some (power) gamers will enjoy MP more than SP, and will enjoy using overpowered items, but I guess this guys are already contemplated by the game. It's the guys that care about progression and storytelling I am worried about...

Cheers!

 

I had actually started MP before the tutorial sent me there. So I didn't even know about Starter Packs existing, let alone get a free one.

When I finally did go back to single player long enough to hit that point in the tutorial, I wound up not using a single item that was in the starter pack given to me for free (though I did buy a Dwarven Pack and use a few of those).

The point of this anecdote: You can actually win in MP without being given the massive freebies.

Of course, that point is moot because while winning in MP you are still gaining a lot of really awesome items that you are able to use only up until you go back to SP.

I am only just now finishing my first level 8 dungeon. I am 1200 or so in MP with decks that can cross the entire field and kill a human priest on the first turn. But in SP, the two armored dogs and 1 guard at the end of Compass of Xorr wiped me out twice.

 

The items aren't overpowered, they are at most mediocre for their level. The progression and storytelling is unaffected by introducing multiplayer, nothing in the story is revealed to you and nothin is unlocked for you. At most you are given a peak at the potential of a few high level items that you can't use until you level up in single player. To me this gives the player a direct incentive to level up in single player. Even doing so I think I used maybe one item from the starting pack in my first single player play through, an it was hardly game breaking or necessary.

 

The OP touches upon a problem that definately needs to be addressed with the game's overall design.

One on hand Card Hunter is a CCG, and on the other hand it is an RPG with items.

Why are all OP claims on cards and not items?

This is EXACTLY why MadHab quit. He got a bunch of high level items from the starter deck, and he thought they were good (even though the starter deck are actually extremely weak). If MadHab continued to keep playing, he would hit one of the tougher lv. 12 or lv. 14 stages, and get his butt kicked, and then quit out of frustration.

"I have all these high level items... yet I can't do anything to the enemies!"

Because there is such a strong disconnect between item level, item rarity, and actual item usefulness, new players are totally confused on how to play or progress on this game. So they quit.

 

And just to be more specific to MadHab:

The starter deck is trash. You will not be able to complete the regular campaign with it, not a chance.

 

I disagree in that I don't see a disconnect between item level, and item rarity. Higher level items typically are more powerful but require power tokens to use. More rare items have better cards. As far as item usefulness this is something for the player to discover and requires playing the game to learn the strategic uses. This isn't like most other RPG's people are use to playing where the game will quite literally tell you if one item is better than another(item X has +2 over currently equiped item). The equipment requires analysis on part of the player to determine if the cards that it adds to their deck contributes to their strategic goals. That makes it an extremely complicated game with a very in depth learning curve, But it allows a lot of customization for each player weighing the risk and rewards of each item and their associated costs.

Every game is going to have a learning curve especially RPG's, especially CCG's, and especially Strategy games. Combine them and you got one complicated confusing game that just isn't going to appeal to everyone. Watering down and hand holding someones experience isn't going to make the learning curve better for the majority of players it will only make the game less interesting potentially losing even more players instead of the ones that just decided the game was too complicated to learn and understand in the first place.

I don't understand how introducing the multiplayer starter pack can confuse someone on how to progress through single player. Progression through single player is established at the very first module; win and unlock more modules.

 

I agree with the OP. It's not about the items being more powerful to me like most are discussing. It's simply the influx of items(most not useable) from multiplayer added to the campaign inventory at that point threw off my overwhelming desire to play the game(I've gotten past it but I would suggest looking into this. My post from the 1st impression thread said this..

My first impression was "wow"! This is a total amazing throwback to the old days of D&D when I was growing up. Graphics.. controls.. learning curve.. challenge.. loot system.. pretty much everything I've been impressed with and was very much looking forward to buying pizza and telling my friends about it. However, I ran into one thing that I did not care for at all. When you get to multiplayer for the first time and are given the Adventurer's Starter Pack for PvP.. I'm not digging that those much more powerful items are added to your campaign's pool of items. I get that you can earn items in PvP and PvE and use them between each play type (that's cool) but I feel those items that come with the starter pack (and perhaps all purchased PvP packs) should not be added to your general campaign items. The item progression to that point was fun, exciting, and engaging (made me want to join the Club!) but to all of a sudden get these "higher tier" items it totally through off the pace of item progression for me in the campaign(I realize you can't use most of them at that point due to power).

Please consider a solution to those PvP pack items.. like bind them to PvP only(just the starter items not ones actually earned through PvP) and not allow them to drop into your campaign inventory right after trying out the PvP tutorial and going back to campaign. Thanks for listening.