Beta Feedback on RNG

If it were perfectly unbroken, people wouldn't be complaining about it. Mind. Blown.

It's the random factor that adds to the luck factor...and there's quite a big random factor ATM.

 

Perhaps a race based attack card that is a guaranteed draw every round?

Say 4 damage attacks for each race.

Dwarves attack is melee range, encumber 1 or bash 1 (Depending on how we want to go with this.

Elves are shift 1 melee range or even range 2.

Humans are range 2 melee.

This also might add to the class balance I hear some talk about.

 

I didn't take the time to read the entire thread but I'm going to throw in my 2 cents.

This game is extremely (ridiculosly [absurdly]) luck-based. I don't agree with it. It has some nice elements of skill as well, but... There are just too many factors of luck. It doesn't necessarily ruin the game, because it can still be plenty of fun, and it doesn't necessarily make the game non-competitive, because the composition of your deck and your decision making-skills still play a huge role..
Nonetheless, I feel like there are far too many ways for luck to interfere.

Gear/loot? Luck.
Draws? Luck. (This is a huge culprit, because by design, this game FORCES you to put bad cards that you don't want into your deck with the power token/trait system.)
Dice rolls? Luck.
Luck attacks you from all angles and it can either give you a free win, or it can decide to **** you.

At this point, its probably too late to change, and I doubt Jon wants to change it to begin with. I just don't see why people include such huge luck factors in games to begin with. I don't find anything fun about winning due to luck, because it is undeserved, and there damn sure isn't anything fun about losing to luck when there was nothing I could've done to avoid it.
Luck is the autopilot of video games, and while I think it does its have its place, that place should always be MINIMAL. Card games have a large luck factor by default, but Cardhunter has expanded on that tremendously.

I think it would be nothing but beneficial if the draws were changed to include the one default movement card, along with one guaranteed attack card (Not racial default, something drawn from your deck), and one random card.

 

Eh. I don't know about this. I mean, what, we'd be forced to have multiples of this card in our decks or something? What if people don't want to use this "race based attack card"?

I agree with pretty much all of this. I'm a big fan of strategy, and I assume most people playing this game are as well, and I feel like Card Hunter takes a lot away from strategy with how random and luck-based it can be. I don't want to play a game as strategic as chess, but I want to either win because I outplayed my opponent or lose because he outplayed me, not have the match decided because of a couple unlucky draws. And I know people will say that if you're skilled enough you should be able to beat most players or whatever, but that's just nonsense, sorry. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, if you have a bunch of bad draws/dice rolls in a match, you will most likely lose unless you're facing someone who's just not that good at the game.

 

It's certainly valid to prefer games that are less random and more skill-based (and you're certainly not alone there), but don't assume that everyone else - or even a majority of gamers - have the same preference. Luck is a huge, huge draw for less hardcore gamers who might otherwise be intimidated or grow frustrated by a competitive game. In addition to giving the underdog a fighting chance, an element of randomness can be a great source of excitement. The suspense of a critical die roll, the thrill of opening a booster pack (or chest)... these things are fun for heck of a lot of people.

Card Hunter is meant to invoke the feeling of sitting at a table and playing DnD with your friends, and a huge part of that was rolling dice. Card Hunter uses cards instead of D20s but the principle is the same. Sometimes your dice or cards don't cooperate and other times they do exactly what you want, but that's all part of the excitement.

 

Gear/look is (of course) luck -- to a point. You are getting some gear. What you do with that gear is not luck though. It's about using what you get in a skilled way.

Draws luck? Somewhat, yeah. It's a card drawing game so there is bound to be some here. You can manipulate the probabilities though based on your deck construction. Again by applying skilled deck construction to probabilities.

Dice rolls luck? Ug dice hate me. So I try to stay away from them. I can't depend on armor or blocks, so I work around them using the two points above. Using the gear I lucked into, and manipulating my draws accordingly through deck building.

Certainly an opponent can rely on luck and benefit from it (last game I had someone with Boosted Heal miss 1 roll out of 7!) but there are ways around those as well. Randomness is at the core of what the game is built on, but it's not all encompassing and eclipsing skill. There are very few areas that I think we can realistically change things to remove randomness while keeping with the current game design.

 

Personally I feel that if RNG were removed from the game in the ways the OP is referring to, it would severely curb the deck building methodologies that make PvP so enjoyable to me.

Depending on how you build your deck you can create situations where it's high risk / high variance with insane outcomes, or you can build it where you have the vast majority of draws streamlined to get the effect you want in battle on a more consistent basis.

The RNG element is what gives you a variable battle each time you play and allows you to fully explore your Card Hunter strategies.

Are you the kind of player who puts Enormous Mattock in your deck? or do you opt for Warrior's_Axe? - (Disclaimer: These are examples. There are significantly more options between the two cards and they do not necessarily represent the full ends of the multidimensional spectrum that is Warrior weapons)

More risk more reward or more consistency?

Hint: having these options is good for a game. Hardcore multiplayers will always opt for maximum consistency given a certain power component, but that doesn't mean there's not room for people who want to do fun/interesting combos!

(This same argument has been identified in Magic the Gathering as the Psychographical profiles "Johnny, Timmy, and Spike" : Read more here http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Psychographic_profile)

tl;dr - Stop blaming RNG, frustration is normal but play in such a way that minimizes the effect of RNG, Yes it's possible.

 

Agreed. There is little more frustrating then having the enemy team one attack from defeated, and then drawing 3 non-attack cards for all of your characters three turns in a row and losing the match. I also feel like an asshole when I play someone and roll nothing but sixes while they roll nothing but ones and I win not because I employ better strategy, but because I get lucky.

There's so much randomness in the game that I feel like it needs to be tamped down on. Having a guaranteed attack or move every turn would help a lot.

 

I totally blame the rng I attempted to minimize the effect by stacking my deck so full of attack cards that I have less than a 8% chance to draw non attack cards yet EVERY game EVERY time I get 2 non attack cards something is wrong when it happens EVERY time. I cannot emphasize enough that it's happening to me EVERY GAME. Not hyperbole. Not exaggeration not psychological phenomenon ITS HAPPENING TO ME EVERY TIME. Something is Broken with the RNG.

 

You already draw a racial move card, each turn, for free, over and above any move cards you have in your deck. In other words, you can construct a deck without any move cards and you will still draw one per turn.

On the other point, I have played boardgames from Ludo to Drang Nach Osten for example, and they all have randomness and luck in them. Any CRT or THAC0 requires you to roll dice and the outcome is never fixed. Even if you have 100% chance to hit or 100% chance miss, there is still the "natural 20" etc, that might change the result.

What's the mileage in complaining that there's luck in a game? Would you prefer that the Trogs will always hit for maximum damage no matter what armour you're wearing?

 

TheOneBigOne as of 6/28/2013

2 Games Played
1 Victory

Your sample size is INSANELY small for multiplayer. You must be playing Single Player?

We need more information, What level are your characters? What size is your deck? give us a list of cards that exist in your decks for your characters and we can have a more accurate idea of why you feel the way you do.

Personally, this appears to be a VERY clear case of blind pessimism.

 

The mileage is that too much luck in a game makes it a crappy game, and since this game is still in beta, and I'm supposedly a beta tester, and the company is still making changes, and they supposedly want my feedback... isn't that the whole reason we're both here? To complain about whatever aspects of the game merit complaining about?

War - the card game that kids play - is 100% luck based. It is a terrible, terrible game, probably among the worst that you can find, because it has no skill involved, no choices involved, and really isn't even a game. At the other end of the spectrum, chess and go, perhaps the two oldest (or certainly two of the oldest) and most respected games in existence have no luck whatsoever. One end of the spectrum is reliably terrible, the other is terribly reliable. Given the choice, I'll go with the latter.

Introducing some luck into games, as is the case with poker, can be really interesting. Introducing just a little choice into a game of luck, though, makes virtually no difference. I play roulette on occasion, but only because there's lots of money involved. Take out the money and the game sucks.

Personally, I think that Card Hunter has a little too much luck baked in right now. It's obviously not war or roulette, and it was never trying to be chess, but I think the RNG holds too much sway. It's in the gear you have, the cards you get, and the effects the cards have (sometimes).

Would you prefer Troggs and your characters only connect with their attacks on a 4+? If movement only worked on a 2+? I think those changes would both make the game far, far worse. Likewise, I think the game could be a bit better by pulling some of the existing chance out of it.

 

But because you choose the latter doesn't mean the objectively better game is Chess. There's a reason why people will still play War even when a Chess board is readily available.

What do you mean by "better"? More competitive? Faster paced? More predictable combat scenarios? I'm with you on a lot of your explanations, I can see your point of view and I'd like you to expand upon it.

I really enjoy Card Hunter's the way it is, I think there's enough of a random nature that gives you the feel of a CCG combined the strategy element of a well put together board game. Of course there could be an interesting outcome card draw was altered, but with architectural changes come glaring possibilities for exploitation and mathematical questioning.

for example: The most popular suggestion was to have your team always draw 1 attack card as well as a movement.

If that's the case, what's the final card you draw? Random? what does adding a 100% chance to draw an attack card do to your deck's weaknesses, specifically how fast the deck burns through attacks?
what about decks that only have minimal attack cards (priests with focus on holy abilities)?
What happens after turn 5-6 when you've exhausted attack cards?
is there a SEPARATE pool for just attack cards? If not, what do you draw instead?

+?...etc ad nauseam

As you can see above, with a minor suggestion comes a torrent of balancing questions.

 

I posted this information previously. Yes I have been playing almost exclusively single player campaign I am now level 13 with at least 500 games by my estimate, and in 500 games I have drawn 2 non attack cards IN EVERY SINGLE BATTLE IN JUST 4-5 TURNS SOMETIMES TWICE. It's not pessimism, it's not in my head, I'm not some lunatic that plays 2 games and *****es. Telling me I can't collect data and report facts is insulting. What I'm saying is happening is factual. I'm attempting to give feedback and everyone doubts me and says it's in my head. It's not.

I'm reporting factual information in the feedback section to attempt to correct a problem I am encountering. I am also giving feedback on how I feel about it. How can you question either or attempt to tell me what I am experiencing or feeling when you cannot possibly know what's going on in my game?

 

Not everyone. I'm with you on this.

 

True not everyone. You're my boy Blue, you're my boy. I'll admit I was using hyperbole when I said everyone's against me.

 

Whoah there, guy. Let's kick it down just a notch. -Megadestructo

 

BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Starting round 3
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Event=Attachment Phase Initiated
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Ned Stark took 3 damage
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gil-Galad healed 1
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Event=AttachmentExpired,Attachment=Brains!,AttachedTo=Ned Stark
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Detaching and discarding Brains! from Ned Stark
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Event=AttachmentExpired,Attachment=Clumsy,AttachedTo=Deltoid
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Detaching and discarding Clumsy from Deltoid
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Event=Draw Phase Initiated
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=theonebigone drew Run for Ned Stark
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=theonebigone drew Block for Ned Stark
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=theonebigone drew Block for Ned Stark
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=theonebigone drew Dash for Gil-Galad
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=theonebigone drew Spark Inductor for Gil-Galad
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=theonebigone drew Able Bash for Gil-Galad
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=theonebigone drew Run for Lem
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=theonebigone drew Heal for Lem
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=theonebigone drew Spear of Darkness for Lem
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew Walk for Muscular Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew a card for Muscular Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew a card for Muscular Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew Walk for Festering Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew a card for Festering Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew a card for Festering Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew Run for Alet Zhav
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew a card for Alet Zhav
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew a card for Alet Zhav
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew Run for Skeletons1
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=Gary drew a card for Skeletons1
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Event=Action Phase Initiated
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (theonebigone),RoomID=227040,Msg=theonebigone must play a Trait

 

Just from my latest game note my warrior Ned Stark draws 2 non attack in round 3. Also note that Brains! was attached to him meaning he was in melee surrounded and needed an attack card badly.
I have pages and pages just like this where it shows I draw 2 non attack cards EVERY GAME in 4-5 turns so shut it. I could post logs for every game but that seems tedious. As for 500 some games and level 13 that's why I hate the rng because I lose A LOT. You don't get exp from losses.

 

Needless to say I lost the previous game and had to reattempt it so here's my VERY NEXT GAME (granted it's 1 turn beyond my average of 4-5 but still, not within 8% odds when I have so few non attack.)
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Starting round 6
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Event=Attachment Phase Initiated
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Ned Stark healed 1
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gil-Galad healed 1
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Event=AttachmentExpired,Attachment=Defensiveness,AttachedTo=Alet Zhav
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Detaching and discarding Defensiveness from Alet Zhav
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Event=Draw Phase Initiated
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=TheOneBigOne drew Run for Ned Stark
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=TheOneBigOne drew Fumble for Ned Stark
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=TheOneBigOne drew Block for Ned Stark
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=TheOneBigOne drew Dash for Gil-Galad
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=TheOneBigOne drew Dash for Gil-Galad
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=TheOneBigOne drew Walk for Gil-Galad
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=TheOneBigOne drew Run for Lem
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=TheOneBigOne drew Righteous Frenzy for Lem
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=TheOneBigOne drew Sapping Touch for Lem
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew Walk for Muscular Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew a card for Muscular Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew a card for Muscular Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew Walk for Festering Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew a card for Festering Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew a card for Festering Zombie
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew Run for Alet Zhav
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew a card for Alet Zhav
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew a card for Alet Zhav
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew Run for Skeletons1
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew a card for Skeletons1
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=Gary drew a card for Skeletons1
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Event=Action Phase Initiated
BATTLE LOG: Scenario=Tomb of Alet Chav,Room=ALET (TheOneBigOne),RoomID=227453,Msg=TheOneBigOne must play a Trait