Beta Feedback on RNG

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by TheOneBigOne, Jun 26, 2013.

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  1. TheOneBigOne

    TheOneBigOne Mushroom Warrior

    I hate it. HATE. I don't use the word lightly, I am very tolerant of a great deal in videogames but I LOATHE the rng I want to kill it and all it's kind in the fires of [let's not go there -Mega]. It needs fixing BADLY. No actually it needs more than fixing it needs to be removed completely and a new, better, one needs to be installed.

    Examples of how the Random Number Generator totally ruins my game consistently:
    I have, on my lvl 11 human warrior, 24 attack cards (red), 4 blue move, 2 gray armor, 2 green block, 1 black 2 orange traits. My average battle lasts about 4-5 turns win or lose.
    I see in those 4-5 turns every single armor and block card in my deck and all 4 move cards.


    Every time I get surrounded and need an attack card I get a move or block EVERY TIME. I have been surrounded by enemies and drawn 3 move cards in a turn so many times I can't even keep track. I have NEVER drawn 2 attack cards when I had any enemies within 2 squares. But every time there isn't an enemy within 6 squares I get two attack cards when I NEED a move card. EVERY TIME without fail. I could accept it if it were an anomaly and only happened once in ten battles, but it happens to me EVERY TIME I need a card for the situation my character is in. It's like the game is intentionally giving me the worst card it can possibly give me in any given situation.

    My mage character has 37 cards and only 8 of those are non attack cards, same thing happens with that character too. How can I see all 8 non attack cards in 4-5 turns every battle? It's mathematically impossible!

    I can make all the tactically correct moves and actions and still lose because it deals me the absolute worst card when I am at crucial moments in the battle. It makes for a very frustrating experience.

    My suggestion to solve this: do away with random numbers and random draw, assign cards priority based on proximity to enemies and life of characters and number of cards in the deck. I obviously want to draw a Chop if I have 10 of them in a deck of 30 when I'm face to face with 4 enemies.

    OR give one attack card and one move card every turn along with 1 random card.

    When the ONLY objective on the majority of maps is to eliminate all enemies how can I defeat them without attack cards every turn?

    In closing burn the RNG to the ground and come up with a better draw system random anything generally sucks anyways.
  2. Doctor Blue

    Doctor Blue Orc Soldier

    I totally agree with you. I can't tell you how many times my warrior has sat there with absolutely no attack cards for 2 rounds, or how many times he's had attack cards, stepped up to kill an enemy, didn't have enough left to finish it so I wait until next round thinking I'll get at least one to finish it off...nope...none. My decks are also balanced and yet I get movement/armor/block more than anything else a lot of the time.

    I think a batter system would be to be guaranteed 1 attack card, 1 movement card, and 1 buff/spell/heal/etc. card each round. On the rounds you draw more than 3, those 3 could be random. I wouldn't mind those being random.
  3. Haxzploid

    Haxzploid Ogre

    Try play 10 games, write down what cards you drew in those 10 games, not just the bad turns. Now compare it to the amount of cards you had of each type. I am quite certain you will end up with a result that is pretty close to what it should be.
  4. TheOneBigOne

    TheOneBigOne Mushroom Warrior

    I can fraps a few games to prove just how wrong you are my friend. No offense but you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. Blindsight

    Blindsight Ogre

    There are already lots of threads about this, here is one such thread that it was addressed:

    rng is not used. It has been stated by the devs that all random numbers are taken from the java implementation of Math.random().
  6. TheOneBigOne

    TheOneBigOne Mushroom Warrior

    I'm not specifically talking about dice rolls Blindsight. Actually I think the dice rolls are fine. It's the cards and card dealing generator I don't know what else to call it but Random Number Generator but whatever it's called it's broken and not dealing cards truly randomly for me. Even if it was randomly dealing (it's not) random dealing in a game where you live and die by a single turn or two it needs to be less random in favor of cards you need.
  7. Blindsight

    Blindsight Ogre

    That is handled by the same randomization as the dice rolling. Interesting that you think one is fine and the other isn't... I'm actually the same way, the dice aspect HATES me, as does any card effect that is random. I'm cool with the card draws though, feels like I have more control over that because, well, I do. :p
  8. jubenei

    jubenei Mushroom Warrior

    Yeah the game is kind of silly sometimes i played The Tomb of Tvericus yesterday and today with almost the same party setup, only changed one bash to parry and yesterday i barely survied and had to replay some of the missions and today i went trough in a single rush without loosing any partymember so i could have easily done the no death quest. And it was only because i got the cards exactly when i needed them e.g. Boiling Armor to destroy the skeleton armor so my warrior could kill them. Or Unholy Wellspring you get that in the first or second turn, you can clear a bunch of monsters very easily very fast which then makes the rest of the game kind of easy. But if you only get blocks or armor or movement in the first turns you are basically screwed. Have no idea how to balance this.
  9. Bradford

    Bradford Mushroom Warrior

    If you so intensely dislike luck and randomness in games what possessed you to even want to try something like Card Hunter? In just about any game involving cards and dice you will sometimes get lucky or unlucky. It just comes with the territory, man.
  10. Stargazer86

    Stargazer86 Kobold

    That's the thing about card games. All you can do is adjust the percentages of cards within your deck in hopes of increasing your odds of drawing what you need.

    To used Magic the Gathering as an example, people often place 4 copies of key cards in their deck to maximize the chances of drawing them. They also calculate the mana costs of their cards, and add in a number of Land cards that will hopefully allow them to draw the number and color of mana when they need it. Unfortunately, there will always be cases where you draw land after land and are simply beaten because you didn't draw anything useful.

    Personally, it does feel like I get crappy move/block cards when I don't need them, or that the dice rolls are a bit unfair. But feeling is much different from fact.

    However, I did notice something odd involving Crude Plate. If you cast Path of Knives on an enemy wearing Crude Plate, it'll attempt to damage them whenever they move. The Plate will roll to block the damage, and if it does, it forces them to move back a space, which then triggers the Path of Knives again, with triggers the Crude Plate again... you can see where this is going. Until Crude Plate fails a block, it'll keep activating due to Path of Knives.

    I've literally watched Path of Knives knock an enemy back clear across the map simply because they keep rolling their blocks. It's a 4+ block, so it's a 50% chance to succeed, but it's just silly watching Crude Plate block the damage 6+ times it a row, sending them backpedaling all the way across the screen.
  11. penda

    penda Mushroom Warrior

    RNG is not the culprit here. In fact, I'd argue the RNG is working as expected. You should expect to see no attack card draws occasionally.

    Lets use a sample warrior load-out. (We will generalize here but it's enough to support the point)
    • 3 x Weapon Slots = 18 Attack
    • Helm = 3 Non-Attack
    • Body = 3 Non-Attack
    • Shield = 3 Non-Attack
    • Boots = 3 Non-Attack
    • Race Trait = 3 Non-Attack
    • Class Trait = 2 Traits + 1 Attack (Most common configuration)
    That's a total of 36 cards but effectively 34 cards due to the two trait cards. That means 15 out of 34 cards are not attack cards. That's 44% of your deck! It's not hard to see why drawing 2 new cards per round will occasionally land you with no attack cards.

    More precisely the odds of drawing no attack cards from two draws is as follows:
    (15/34) * (14/33) ~ 19%

    1 in 5 draws results in no attack cards. Now, this number is not perfect but close enough to understand that it happens often enough. There are ways to combat this, and it's up to you to find out what.

    Even with no deck adjustment, these are things you should account for based on what you draw. If you've drawn all attack cards in the early rounds, maybe you shouldn't commit all your movement to close the distance and find yourself with a high chance of having no options next round. Going further, closely noting what your opponent plays is part of risk assessment.

    Now that's not to say how often warriors draw no attack cards is or isn't a problem. It's just that RNG is not causing it.
    Fury and shram86 like this.
  12. Oberon

    Oberon Hydra

    The only thing I'll add is that it works as a draw from your deck until it's exhausted. Then your deck is reshuffled and used again.

    What this means, is that if you draw a lot of your attack cards early, you'll draw fewer later on until you exhaust your deck. The only card they insure you will draw each turn is 1 of your racial move cards. The rest is up to your deck, and there are cards that can help you see more of your deck each turn.
  13. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    I report very few posts. Outright insulting people, though, pushes me towards it no matter whether you use the magic words "no offense."

    To address your concern . . . everyone has already addressed it. Just listen to penda or check out some links.

    In that very thread I said I don't want to repeat myself about statistics a million times. penda, I hope people remember your analysis and repost it in the future for threads like this.
  14. Ultreos

    Ultreos Mushroom Warrior

    Well to make some points that are commonly not addressed as often. The enemy tends to draw so many move cards that you can't outrun them almost ever, and the enemy can strategically place itself often in the first turn. The player is often dealing with this by the second turn unless they drew another move card.

    And while you can keep two cards at the end of every round and you get three new cards per turn one of those cards are always your racial movement. Perhaps a basic attack card with varying degrees of damage based on race as a guaranteed draw would help. Say dwarves draw a 4 damage attack with knockback 1. Humans draw a 4 damage attack with reach 1. And elves draw a 4 damage attack with step 1? On top of the two cards drawn from the deck? This would potentially allow the races that much talked about balance as well.
  15. skip_intro

    skip_intro Ogre

    Perception =/= Reality. You simply cannot consistently draw cards in the way the OP states, i.e "EVERY TIME in need an x I get a y." I'm also not happy with the "I want to kill it and all it's kind in the fires of Auschwitz" line either.
  16. SurgeonFish

    SurgeonFish Automaton Moderator Staff Member

    Unfortunately the reality of card games is that RNG governs your hand. Thats the reason you shuffle your deck in real life before you draw cards.
  17. TheOneBigOne

    TheOneBigOne Mushroom Warrior

    Ok, first your numbers of attack cards are wrong in my case. I stated exactly what's in my deck originally but I now have changed around some items since my last post.
    I have stacked as many attack cards on my warrior as possible. I am still seeing multiple turns each battle of zero attack cards.

    3 Weapon Slots = 18 attack
    helm = 1 trait 1 block 1 attack
    Body = 2 armor 1 attack
    Shield = 1 move/attack (blue/red) 2 block
    Boots = 2 move/attack (blue/red) 1 armor
    Race Trait = 1 attack 1 white (Forward Thinking not sure what type that is) and 1 move
    Class Trait = 1 trait 2 attack

    So lets do math! It's fun! 26 attack cards in a deck of 36! My count isn't 15 non attack it's 10 out of your 34 since we aren't counting trait cards. So it's (10/34) * (9/33) .080213 or as you put it 8% ish. NOW please explain how I see two non attack cards in a game that lasts 4-5 turns in math? YOU CAN'T. It's broken. It's not mathematically correct as I stated previously but I guess I had to show my work to get some respect huh?

    As for my tactics, I'm not perfect, I make mistakes in combat and even in choosing where to move and what cards to play. I'll admit that. It's not my issue though. I don't have a problem with my own mistakes. I understand I make them and I accept that. My problem is when I draw cards that don't match probability and statistics consistently. aka why I said EVERY TIME. Every game I have played EVERY SINGLE ONE I have had at least ONE draw in 4-5 turns that is ZERO ATTACK CARDS that's not statistically probable or even possible with just an 8% chance. I have to be the most unlucky person in the entire world the statistical anomaly if this is the case which I'm pretty sure it's not.
  18. TheOneBigOne

    TheOneBigOne Mushroom Warrior

    My average game doesn't last long enough to make this an issue. In 4-5 turns I've either won or lost most battles. Can't exhaust 26 attack cards two at a time in just 5 turns my friend.
  19. TheOneBigOne

    TheOneBigOne Mushroom Warrior

    As for those of you that are implying that I cannot perceive reality correctly, I'm lying, or I am ignoring "good" deals, get bent. Seriously you think telling someone they are wrong is an insult? Telling someone they can't see what's in front of them and that they are insane, stupid, or a flat out lier is way worse in my opinion. You are insulting me. Someone report those people. I am consistently drawing the way I say I am, it's my whole reason for posting, I'm not just whining about some made up injustice, this is actually happening to me. Furthermore HOW DARE YOU tell me what I see and experience when you have NO data to prove otherwise. You might not be having this issue but that doesn't mean I am not experiencing these problems.
  20. Phaselock

    Phaselock Bugblatter

    erm, your calculations are wrong.

    edit: I'll make a separate thread detailing draw probabilities, hope it helps. Oh, btw...I can understand flaming and trolling but it won't solve your problem.
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