Beta brutally unfun around level 7 and above.. help!

Okay, I got into the beta last week and for the first few hours I was just in freaking love with this thing (I even wrote about it on my gaming blog) to the point where I was ready to drop money and buy some pizza to unlock new adventures and buy some random chests.

But around the time I hit level 6 or so, it was a struggle to complete any of the adventures. Enemies would have small, tiny little 15 card decks full of 2 range stabbing attacks that did MORE damage than most of my own 1 range attacks. They would be chock full of Armor and block cards, and the incredibly annoying Parry card. I finally managed to complete one or two of the level 6 maps and hit party level 7, but then it just got even harder.

There is a map (The White Star) that features a second battle so brutal (14 or so Kobolds armed with Spears, blocking cards, and parry) I just close my browser in frustration every time I try it. I'm level 7 with all my party (Dwarf Fighter, Elf Mage, and Human Cleric) and while I can't know, I feel like I have some very nice equipment. But even so, my decks are 33+ cards and some of those cards are (by necessity) weak strikes, weak chops, short range 2 damage zaps, and the like. The enemy has no such limitations - every time they attack, it's a brutal 4 to 8 damage strike, at around the adventures I'm stuck on. I've tried Kinder and some cone/fire attacks, but they have such short range if I get in range to hit anything I get speared to death the very next turn. I don't seem to have access to longer range spells that hit an area, or perhaps I've been very unlucky. I check the armory every day for new cards, though, and no luck so far.

Beneath the Frozen earth is another one I'm stuck on. The second map here is just brutal, with six Trogs also armed with spears, parry, and incredibly, Armor 4 Crude Plates (!) that when they block let the unit struck take a step back! I've loaded up on Boiling Armors to counter, but I only have 3 of them and in a deck of 30+ cards where I get 2 cards a turn (maybe more if I use my cleric to allow my mage to draw more cards) it's a slow process, too slow while I'm being Able Stabbed for 6 or so damage. I also tend to get incredibly unlucky on my armor rolls, routinely rolling 1's, it feels like I'm playing Blood Bowl all the sudden.

I have been too afraid to try The Compass of Xorr, since my level 7 party cannot complete a level 6 adventure! And I'm leery now of spending real money on other adventures I'm just not able to complete.

I realize the first response will be that I need to learn to play the game better, and I'll recognize that's probably true. However, I've been playing turn based strategy games since titles such as Shining Force on the Genesis, through Final Fantasy Tactics, and up to Ogre Battle. It's my bread and butter, and by far the genre that most interests me. I'm not amazing at them, but I've never gotten this stuck this early in any game like this before. My point here is that if I'm getting stuck, this is maybe not going to be enjoyable for more casual strategy game folks. I'm sure most of the gamers on this board will have gotten passed these battles with no problems, but new players (such as my son, who is eager to play having watched over my shoulder) will be turned off when 3 hours in they just hit a wall of difficulty. It's doubly frustrating as I really, really love the combat and card system here.

I'm waiting for some level 5 and other level 6 adventures to open back up, so I can hit level 8 (only 2xp away with all my party members). I'm not sure what good gaining a level will do, it feels honestly like the enemy decks are too small, too tightly packed full of excellent cards, that my decks just cannot compete against.

Am I the only one? If so, is there some advice I can pick up for these maps, maybe? One thing I dislike in my strategy games is for every map to have a clear "solution" - then it feels like I'm just solving a puzzle, is that what I'm missing? The solution to the puzzle? I would hope battles could have multiple viable strategies, but perhaps not. I read through the strategy tips thread, skimmed it really, and I had mostly figured all of that out so I don't believe I'm missing any key rules or tactics, but I also wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't.

Anyway, just wanted to express that. Thanks for reading!

 

There is definitely a steep curve in difficulty around level 7 (though it's a lot better than it used to be, when the level 3 adventures were worlds more difficult than the tutorial). I also ran into similar problems, but going back through earlier adventures helps a lot by giving more items. They're random, so even lower level adventures that no longer give Exp may give a useful item.

Also, there are definitely counters to some of the cards being used in each adventure. Not so extreme that I'd call them "puzzles," but using the right setup can give you an advantage. For many of them, you consistently face the same types of enemies, that naturally use the same kinds of cards. It requires quite a bit of item hunting, but getting the right cards to face them can help a lot. For example, piercing attacks help with armor, and countering stab-happy trogs with step attacks and your own stabs can be helpful. There's definitely an element of luck to all of it, but there are definite ways to improve your chances that are open to you even without buying pizza.

 

Well, thank you MANY times for actually explaining your frustrations. A lot of people come by, declare "this game is too hard because I can't understand Block cards!" and then leave us wondering what to say.

You wrote "level 7 and above" but have yet to try Compass of Xorr, so you may be pleased to learn that the nature of the challenge varies after that point. Armor, Blocks, and range-2 enemies are your current challenge, but soon you'll get different ones, and then they'll be back again later, and so on. If you managed to beat the range-2 enemies and Blockers the last time you saw them (lower-level Troglodytes and Goblins), then you learned most of the lessons you need to beat the current ones.

I can try to give specific suggestions, but I see others have a start on that, and I need to run out the door. If there's anything I can still add when I get back, I'll be glad to help.

 

Just very briefly I'll say that, in both of those instances, the key is engaging smaller numbers of enemies and taking them out before others can get to you. Always look at the map to see if there are choke points where you can force the enemy to engage you with only one or two units at a time, or if they are already separated, move aggressively take them down before they can join together. Both of those maps you're talking about become much easier if you use the map terrain appropriately.

Second map of White Star in particular is still actually the easiest one in the adventure. You are presented with three groups of kobolds. One is very close, just north of where you start, the other two are far away and will take several turns to reach you. Those other groups must approach through a narrow hallway. Have someone stand there and block off that hallway while the other two kill that first group of kobolds, then just take out the rest one at a time as they come up that hallway.

It's not the only way to win, but with a limited selection of cards, it is the most reliable.

For card suggestions, just in general, if you are having trouble being swarmed by groups, try finding cards to block off your opponent's movement. Wall Of Stone is an exceptional card that lets you create blocking terrain. You can easily wall off groups of enemies for two turns, giving you a chance to deal with their friends first. Even Wall Of Illusion can help, especially against long-range magic users. Cave In and Rockfall create large patches of Difficult Terrain that force most enemies to stop when they move onto it, limiting their approach to 1 square per move card for a while, buying you time.

 

These are excellent cards for swarms, but not for low level characters. This is chiefly because the items which these are found on are require talents to use. The easy way out and simplest solution for early game play is Firestorm. This is one card that I highly advise trying to get your hands on at as soon as possible . It can be found on items that require talents, as well as items that do not! This card alone, or when used in conjunction with Unholy Well will easily advance you though many an adventure with ease!

 

Although the difficulty of some adventures has already been tuned since when I started but I remember skipping the trogs and the kobolds and finishing Compass of Xorr first. I found Compass of Xorr a lot easier to win, even with a lower level party.

General hints against kobolds:
- Use chokepoints. If you can attack one kobold with multiple heroes and the enemies can't do the same, it's easier to win.
- Fire Sprays / Ember Sprays can be used to draw out block cards. Only one type of kobolds has range 2 attacks so if you can kill the nearest kobolds afterwards, you can then retreat on the next turn with the squishier wizard before the enemies can retaliate.
- You can use many other types of cards to use up blocks. Weak attacks, Wavering Faith, even heal cards against full health enemies trigger blocks.

General hints against trogs:
- Again use chokepoints.
- Cards that help get rid of armor are useful. Acid terrain cards, Dissolve Armor, any discard type cards. Just don't waste them too early before you can actually follow up with other attacks.
- Penetrating attacks are useful. Even if they have low damage, you can boost the damage with Impaler, Righteous Frenzy etc.
- Lava is useful. Even Crude Plates aren't enough against Hot Spot. Just remember to use them at the very end of a turn, otherwise the foes can often just move to safety.
- If you have problems against their higher range, you can use step attacks (Lunging Hack etc.) and team moves (Shift, Team etc.) to help you close the range. Or you can try to get the enemy to waste their moves first and only then close in on them.

 

I also recently hit a sort of roadblock on The White Star. The difficulty has definitely ramped up, but after 2-3 days of attempting different strategies and practising a different style of play with my party, I successfully completed that Adventure yesterday. It was incredibly satisfying. I don't really feel that the game is unfair, or that it stopped being fun though. Instead, the increased challenge forced me to learn about game mechanics which I would otherwise have ignored because it was possible to get by with the basic strategies I had developed from the very start.

Ultimately what I found useful for The White Star was not so much the use of Kindler + Flame AOE effects (which I thought would be useful). Instead, it was a mix of position/movement and using terrain cards like Hot Spot (does 10 damage, so it kills the Kobolds with 8 HP immediately) and the Spike floor one (can't remember the name, but it does 6 damage to anyone standing on it). The AOE Flame cards do help too, but more so for their duration effects than the basic damage. Glob of Fire was a big help in that aspect too, since I could throw it on the furthest enemy in the back, and he would be dead or have 1 HP remaining by the time he got to any of my characters. For the melee characters, I found that having low-damage cards to filter out all their blocks first before using a big card like Violent Slash can also be very useful. Use them to block the chokepoint on the map so your wizard can't be harassed, and have the warrior eat damage, while being healed by the priest.

The trick is that if you can clear the first mob which starts in front of your very quickly, you can position your party such that when the remaining 2 mobs finally come out, you force them to remain in a train and be unable to attack as a group, as you thin them down one by a one.

 

Indeed Pengw1n is correct. Learning how a particular enemy behaves and what cards they employ isn't something most players can instantly account for. Don't be discouraged by failure. Think of it as an opportunity to learn and grow as a more tactical player.

When I first entered MP Pengw1n schooled me repeatedly (our first four or more matched) as I struggled against the time clock. This forced me to be a faster and more effective killing machine.

 

White star gave me a lot of trouble, but i managed to finagle some items around and got a lot of high risk high reward situations pay off for me.
Biggest thing to remember those Crude Plates, do not work from behind.

 

Two copies of Wall Of Stone is available on The Soulstone, an item that is a guaranteed drop for a Treasure Hunt at level 10. It requires a talent, yes, but by level 7 you already have one unlocked. Which is specifically why I mentioned it.

But yes, all of those cards are difficult to come by. Even before the reset with three, nearly four, fully leveled parties I never owned a single copy of Firestorm or Volcano. Not one. Never even saw an item with it in a store to buy.

Which is why understanding and employing good movement and map use is so important. It makes all of those cards redundant.

Edited to correct level error.

 

After finally getting an invite I had to play CH and soon stumbled over similar problems like the OP.

I got an all Human War/Cle/Wiz Party and began to struggle with the enemies around lvl4/5. I am now on lvl 7 and it's only getting worse. The first real "frustration" started with the boss battle in Slub'Gut's Sanctum where I considered myself to be ill fitted against the 2 range attacks of the guards. I tried to manoeuvre around but it seemed like the guards just got far too many moves. When I thought I could finally hit them, after I lured them, they just pulled out another move and my meele guy was stabbed to death without being able to hit back, because of the lack of appropriate cards on the hand.

On "Diamonds of the Kobolds" and "The White Star" I was just simply shocked and asked myself "how should I do this? This seems impossible!", but finally I realised how to use the terrain to my advantage. Considering the Gary dialogue around this time I would really favour a comment like "If you want get out alive you should use the terrain!" either on a loose or even before the match starts.

Overall I really like CH so far, but I think the learning curve is too steep around level 6-7 and I miss some hints that could tell me what I have done wrong. Secondly I always consider my party to be the underdogs, that have to fear everything they meet and most of the loot doesn't seem to improve my performance. Last but not least the random factor gets always somewhat annoying. "Cool, my Cleric has 3 Righteous Frenzy, but my Warrior doesn't have any attack." It seems like the game wants me to be strategic, but the randomness makes it somewhat hard for me to be.

 

Being the big rude pessimist i am i have to chime in with the fact that if they make the game any easier i will not enjoy it and neither will a lot of other people. The game is supposed to be balls hard and what we see now is like 10 times easier than we used to have it. So what ever you do consider heavily if you actually want a cow clicker or a real game before suggesting its too hard.

 

I don't consider the game to be too hard, sometimes I really like those nuts. But fact is I don't know why I fail. The level indicator tells me that I should be fine, so where is my problem? Did I choose the wrong items, so I just get cards I can't really use on this map, or do I lack the right cards entirely? Is my tactic just plain stupid or is it fine and I just went head on unlucky? It is hard to tell as a beginner and it makes me think if I really want to commit enough time to learn where my problems are.

 

Levels don't tend to mean much as an "indicator" in card games. What matters more is the composition of the deck and how you choose to use them. Positioning in the game is pretty important, and as such the game seems balanced to always draw a move card every turn at the very least. So it's not entirely random. Another thing to consider is that loading up on more of a certain type of cards will give you a better chance of drawing them in a turn. With any card game, there are things you can actively do to influence the probability, and at the same time, what you do with the random draw of a hand is part of the strategy.

If you notice that enemies are wiping your party in a certain way, then trying to do the same thing over and over will only result in the same outcome. To change the outcome you have to consider how you can prevent yourself from being put in the position where their advantage wipes the party out. If range is the main issue, the wizard usually has a bunch of options to even the playing field offensively. Keep your distance and force the enemy to exhaust all their move cards, then let your melee fighters close in to attack.

Also never be afraid to "retreat" if you feel too many enemies are closing in, and there is an available path behind you. Moving towards the enemy all the time isn't always the best strategy. If you draw a bad hand for example, there's nothing wrong with backing away and just passing the turn.

 

I am in favor of adding a few copies of Weak Strike or Little Zap or similar cruddy cards to opposing decks. Some enemies pump out 30 plus damage a round!

In any situation where running away is a viable tactic, do so. This will depend highly on the map, of course. You can use this tactic to stack your hand with good stuff and alpha strike a problem foe in a single go... especially if you bring a Parry to the fight.

I concur with others regarding terrain attachments like acid and lava. If you position right you can Bash folks back into a terrain attachment or even use Telekinesis to move them back on it. That said, any opponent with Resistant Hide is going to be the bane of your non-arcane powered wizard cards.

I had tons of trouble with White Star... and wasn't until I found a Blister Stone that I mutilated that adventure. All I can say is keep truckin'!

 

If the enemy is too strong, sure. But if you're saying that just because "the enemy shouldn't be able to do more damage than the player," then I disagree based on principles of game balance. But I also digress.

This is related to your concern, sdlufkin, about "some of those cards are (by necessity) weak strikes, weak chops, short range 2 damage zaps, and the like. The enemy has no such limitations - every time they attack, it's a brutal 4 to 8 damage strike." It may not sound reassuring, but . . . don't worry that you "don't have the right cards": at that point in the game, your best cards really are the 4 or 5 damage ones (plus Violent Overswing). So the enemies may seem overpowered, but you really are strong enough to defeat them! Like I said in that link, the enemies have to be that scary because you have the amazing advantages of human intelligence and flexibility.

Also, when you mentioned "2 damage zaps," you meant Penetrating Zap, right? You don't get better magical Penetrating cards for awhile, so again you are expected (and able) to win with that much damage. I hope the advice from others is helpful.

 

I still think the game doesn't do a great job in explaining how to fight properly. "Diamonds of the Kobolds" and "The White Star" do well in teaching you how to use terrain against masses but I don't know if I figured out how to win the first map of "Beneath the Frozen Earth" if I hadn't lurked forums for hints (aka. use your moves wisely).
The game is well balanced in a sense of being challenging while still being fair, but only if you know what you have to do. And having to figure out what you have to do can be quite frustrating because - as I said earlier - the game doesn't explain quite well what to do. Don't get me wrong, the tutorial is good and explains basic stuff and all that is good enough to get around level 7, before getting problems. Because of that people tend to say the enemies should be weaker/the player should be stronger. In contrast, I think the game should explain itself better, so that players who struggle don't have to lurk the forums.