[Balance] Card Discussion

Discussion in 'Card Hunter General Chat' started by Jade303, Mar 14, 2015.

  1. Jade303

    Jade303 Thaumaturge

    Awesome guys, lots of great discussion going on here.

    Yes, somehow Axe of the Dark Soul got lost from my list in the OP. I will also try and add the pertinent quality information for next time.

    Seems like the majority here agree that Raging Strike could use a 1-2 damage buff. Given the other bronze quality attacks, it seems like a fair adjustment for the serious drawback.

    I'd like to note, the devs generally like to avoid changing the quality of cards precisely because it messes with item levels.

    So let's work under 2 of the most likely assumptions:
    -The card quality won't change.
    -The card won't be replaced by a new card.

    Also, I'd like to mention that only 3-4 items with Raging Strike are actually strong enough to be considered for use. All the others are bolded in the list above.
     
  2. Bandreus

    Bandreus Thaumaturge

    I think this is misleading, as Raging Strike already is the most powerful (at least damage-wise) among melee Bronze (-) cards. The plus/minus is actually important here.

    I don't think Raging Strike actually needs a buff. It's intended to be a drawback card to begin with, and it is actually better than most other drawback cards. Think about it as a Vulnerable you can discard, or actually play for some very decent damage. It's not that bad at all?

    Ofc some people will not want to play items with the card on it, which is fine I guess: some players are willing to take risks with their deck-building, while others do not. Seems fair to me.

    Maybe, a change which could make more sense (assuming Raging Strike actually needed a little buff, which I doubt), would be making it deal 2 additional damage (rather then three), when the holder gets hit. My 2c
     
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  3. Lord Feleran

    Lord Feleran Guild Leader

    I've used it to hit my own character with it so I wouldn't burn to death. The damage increase would make it a more interesting (overall better), yet still terrible card to draw.
     
  4. j3st3ri

    j3st3ri Thaumaturge

    No it isn't; Strong Hack and Strong Bludgeon are both bronze cards that do more damage.
     
  5. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    j3st3ri: no strong hack and strong bludgeon are both bronze= cards but raging is a bronze- card.
    I think we should add 2 damage to them. I think having them do 3 more damage then Trained Bludgeon with taking 3 extra when hit and revealing itself would be balanced.
     
  6. j3st3ri

    j3st3ri Thaumaturge

    I thought there's only 7 different quality ratings. I don't see how Strong Hack/Strong Bludgeon has a different quality rating than Raging Strike.
     
  7. Jade303

    Jade303 Thaumaturge

    I like your point of view Bandreus. It would be nice if Raging dealt less damage to the holder.

    However, it only deals 1 more point of damage than Trained Bludgeon.

    Let's take a look:

    Trained Bludgeon= 2 points (6 damage)
    Raging Strike = 2 points (??)
    Strong Hack = 3 points (8 damage)

    Overswing = 4 points (10 damage) but has discard drawback
    Powerful Hack = 6 points (11 damage) but no drawback

    How does Raging Strike fit in?
     
  8. Youbo

    Youbo Orc Soldier

    I don't agree with you. Raging Strike is a attack/drawback hybrid. It is normal and EXPECTED for it to be better than other drawback cards because it is a bronze- quality while most of them are black. You obviously can't compare a black card(Vulnerable) with a bronze- card(Raging Strike). Being bronze-, it should be as good as trained bludgeon but I think nearly everyone agree that 1 more damage over trained bludgeon is not worth the drawback side of this card, which is why I think it need a +2 damage.
    This is not about taking a risk or not, this is about the risks totally outweighting the benefits.
    But yes,reducing the drawback to 2 damage while adding 1 damage is fine,too.
     
  9. Jade303

    Jade303 Thaumaturge

    Alright, let's hit the next card.

    /////////////////////////////
    Card of the Day: Spiked Mail
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    [​IMG]
    Now here is a card that has been left behind long, long ago. It prevents as much damage as Mail but it's silver, not paper+.
    It isn't much worse than Solid Mail, but it is a few steps short of Reliable Mail or Arrogant Armor. In short, the 2 points of piercing damage are laughable and don't make up for the extra armor or superior effects of other armor cards. Even Hardy Mail is more useful than Spiked Mail, particularily since 2 piercing damage gets absorbed by almost any armor card.

    Reliable Hide: 0
    Mail: 1
    Hardy Mail/Thick Hide Armor 3
    Spiked Mail: 6
    Arrogant Armor/Solid Mail/Reliable Mail:6
    Crafted Mail: 7
    Barbed Platemail: 8

    By my reckoning, having an ability (like Thick Hide VS Hardy or Solid vs Arrogant or Crafted VS Barbed) should result in a small or no increase in value. Instead, Spiked Mail costs a whopping 5 points more than Mail.

    Suggestions:
    Increase piercing damage to 3.
    And/or increase roll to 3+.
     
    Sir Veza likes this.
  10. Vakaz

    Vakaz Guild Leader

    Yeah, spiked mail could use some love. Making it 3+ and giving it piercing would probably be about right.
     
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  11. Lord Feleran

    Lord Feleran Guild Leader

    Again agree that a buff would be nice. 3 dmg or maybe 2 penetrating damage would do good to the card :)
     
  12. Bandreus

    Bandreus Thaumaturge

    I thought I would compile a more complete comparison of similarly valued cards to help the discussion process (please report any error/omissions and I shall update the list).

    Silver (+) Armors

    Crafted Mail (aad: 2)

    Silver Armors
    Reliable Mail (aad: 2)
    Arrogant Armor (aad: 1.5, sp: 100% chance discard all attachments)
    Solid Mail (aad: 1.5)
    Spiked Mail (aad: 1, sp: 50% chance of dealing 2 piercing damage to attacker)
    Flight Aura (aad: 0.5, sp: grants fly)
    Resistant Hide (aad: 0.5, sp: fire/poison/electricity/acid immunity)

    Silver (-) Armors
    Heavy Armor (aad: 2.5, sp: encumber 1)
    Mystical Drakehide (aad: 1, sp: 50% chance to discard enemy attachments)
    Sparkling Cloth Armor (aad: ~0.67, sp: move 2 after taking damage)

    aad = average absorbed damage (formula = armor value * chance to trigger)
    sp = special properties

    I sorted Silver Armor Cards by quality and average absorbed damage.

    Fun fact: Solid Mail probably is much more in need for a buff than Spiked Mail is.

    Note: effects boosting/hindering mobility seem to be weighted a lot more than anything else when it comes to balancing items' quality. I.e. Heavy Armor is valued as a Silver (-) despite the high aad, while Flight Aura and Sparkling Cloth Armor are valued as a Silver and a Silver (-) respectively despite the low aad.

    Note 2: Arrogant Armor's special property is effectively ignored as long as determining Card Quality goes, since it makes you discard positive attachments (MF, etc) as well as undesirable enemy ones.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
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  13. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    I agree with this sentiment. When I started pushing vampires hard, a lot of folks were like "Use Lifesuck Spear + Draining Dagger. Loner is too dangerous." But guess what? Vampire's Blade was way good and in fact key to success. Risk-taking can unlock new possibilities, it can push questionable builds into higher tiers. I have a friend who ran double Glinting Eye Hammer priest, and he just did bonkers damage. IDK, I think Raging Strike is "playable" since it's on playable items.

    There are 21 different quality ratings, from E- to AAA+. "Bronze-" is C-, or 2 points. This has been discussed at lengths in other threads, and you can see the numbers in the card data files. There's no visual distinction for players—C-, C, and C+ cards are all in the same 'bronze' category—but the distinction matters for item levels.

    As for armor quality, I think it's a bit funky in a bunch of places. Shrug.
     
  14. Killer Bee

    Killer Bee Orc Soldier


    No, Spiked Mail is really awful. It's worse than tough hide strips at paper quality, worse than hardy mail at bronze, and much worse than thick hide armor at bronze. At least solid mail has a higher average reduction than those.

    The reason it is so bad is the special property is arguably a net negative. It is very unlikely to help you, but the off chance that it does help you may be more than offset by the chance that it hurts you (against martyr's blessing, elven maneuvers).
     
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  15. Lord Feleran

    Lord Feleran Guild Leader

    Was going to post this too. And since everyone and their grandma is running Elven Maneuvers atm...
     
  16. Bandreus

    Bandreus Thaumaturge

    "bad because current meta" is not equal to "bad because sub-par for its quality". Some cards will always be bad vs. specific strategies your opponent might be using (i.e. fire/elec/acid spells vs Resistant Hide, or control spells vs immovable, terrain vs Hover, step attacks vs Pushback Parry, etc etc etc). Barbed Platemail currently stands in a similar spot: it's not used as much as some time ago because it doesn't do too well in the current meta, but that doesn't automatically imply Barbed Platemail is bad and needs a buff.

    And, just to be sure, I wasn't implying Spiked Mail shouldn't be buffed (I actually have no specific opinion about that, tbh). I only posted some more accurate data and also a few unrelated thoughts of my own. Hopefully the info I posted is useful to the discussion.

    I suspect people are going to prefer Reliable Mail to Spiked Mail most of the time anyway, as that one armor is just awesomesauce for its cost. Unless, like, you buffed Spiked Mail a lot.

    Peace.
     
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  17. Jade303

    Jade303 Thaumaturge

    I just want to say on Solid Mail VS Arrogant, Arrogant is both bad and good for the player (You can try and tweak it to your advantage, but still somewhat fair).
    You could tweak Solid Mail a bit (Armor 2 2+ or Armor 3 3+) but at the end of the day, any armor with a roll and same average armor value will always be inferior to Reliable Mail because hey, it's so reliable.
    I would not recommend changing Solid Mail much, or at all.

    The problem is that Spiked Mail costs the same as Reliable Mail, plus the itemization of Spiked Mail isn't particularly great to start with.
    Considering all the items with Spiked Mail (along with the epics and rares with Reliable Mail) , it really couldn't hurt to give Spiked Mail a little buff. Reliable Mail will always be Reliable Mail; it will always be used for certain builds for the damage absorption.
    However, there are some really interesting (and costly!) items with Spiked Mail that wouldn't be unreasonable to give a little "oomph" to what would otherwise be a "mail" card that gets discarded for pretty much anything else, 2 piercing damage be dammed.
     
  18. Jade303

    Jade303 Thaumaturge

    Time for a change of pace.
    /////////////////////////////
    Card of the Day: Fiery Stab
    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
    [​IMG]

    You like Fiery Stab, don't you? It's the only way to grant Fire damage to warriors and priests alike. But are you aware of just how strong this card is?

    Fiery Stab is an interesting card. On the face, it deals 6 damage immediately, fine. Then it deals another 6 damage over 2 turns. Total is 12 damage.

    Armor can reduce damage by triple- so a Reliable Mail would bring the damage down 6 points as long as it is kept in hand.
    But saying that Fiery Stab isn't very good if the enemy has Reliable Mail is like saying Unnerving Strike is good if your opponent has a block in hand. The truth is, generally your attack target has few or zero cards in their hand, let alone a block/armor.

    On the other hand, a Combustible or Vulnerable trait increases the damage by 50% (6 points) for a total of 18 damage. The damage can also increase significantly with Raging Strike or Curse of Fragility. Granted, the Fiery Stab attachment can be discarded or purged (either one turn of burning or both), drawbacks are avoided like the plague because of Fire attacks, etc etc but still.

    So what's the problem? Well, in short:
    -Having armor only cuts down Fiery Stab to a level equal to another silver-quality stab like Potent or Strong Stab.
    -Having no armor, Fiery Stab alone can deal a lot more damage than all other silver cards including Range 1 cards.
    -Having a trait or another negative effect makes Fiery Stab deal a huge amount of damage, even though that is conditional.

    Visual:
    Fiery Stab - Reliable Mail = Strong Stab
    Normal Fiery Stab = Potent Stab + Unholy Wellspring
    Fiery Stab + Comb./Vuln. = Obliterating Stab !!!

    Suggestion: Burning 2, Duration 2
    OR
    Suggestion: Range 1
    (Wouldn't it be nice if people stopped stabbing you from a spear's length with a certain fiery shortsword?)

    Relevant stabs:
    Fiery Stab: 5
    Strong Stab: 6
    Potent Stab: 7
    Penetrating Stab: 8
    Impaling Stab: 10

    Is the shishkabob stab actually fair? Discuss!
     
  19. Lord Feleran

    Lord Feleran Guild Leader

    Fiery Stab is better than the golden Penetrating Stab or the silver Potent Stab.
     
  20. Drakkan

    Drakkan Ogre

    I thing Fiery Stab is ok .. I dont think its OP. I have 7 Blazing Shortswords and I still play other weapons ..

    I dont really understand, what is this discussion about Blazing Shortsword? You think we should nerf it?
    Lets leave such (nerf suggestions) until release of new expansion .. I think its quite futile talking about nerfs right now..
    (Discussions about buffing of cards is ok .. as if a card is weak now it will probably be weak even after new expansion)

    And although it sums to 12 dmg, its now always 12 .. and it's not immediately 12 .. that's much different.. its much better in early rounds..
    sometimes you dont have 3 rounds to wait for full dmg..
     
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