[BALANCE] Balance Suggestion List (January 2014)

The problem with "[dealing] with all of these with an expansion, rather than nerfing" is you run into power creep. Power creep is the designer term for introducing new elements or buffing old elements to combat powerful things. It is very risky and can lead to things getting strong and stronger with the core system being thrown out of whack by the slow scaling of power. It is much easier to nerf and buff the outliers that are problematic. Introducing new things are good, but introducing them as counters to powerful things are bad.

Having niche cards to counter overpowered things means you either run A or B to counter A. That essentially keeps the choice the same and doesn't really do much to make the game healthier for decision making.

People are afraid of nerfing because it angers people -- but it is healthy for the game. Look at the number of nerfs things have received in popular games like "League of Legends" and such. It is important to maintain a game that continues to foster interesting decisions and skillful play.

Similar to what I said above, simply changing Mind Worm to counter draw cards isn't really the best method to solve these problems. You run into issues where A wins unless enemy has B. That is a polar decision and not something that is rich or robust. That being said, I do think Mind Worm probably needs a range buff (to 5 or 6), but I'm saving my buff suggestions for a later time (like Soothing Darkness getting some much needed love).

 

Having finally put a single NS into a build, I want to take back everything I've ever said about it being ok after some damage reduction. Even without damage buffs from frenzy and blind rage, I feel dirty whenever I draw it since I can pretty much insta-kill from across the board, around corners, etc. Step-4 attacks shouldn't exist at all.

 

Yep, now imagine having 2 Vibrant Pains and 2 Lochaber Axes on two Warriors for 9 VPs each. That combined with WW/WWE to throw your enemies in chaos and then jumping on them to kill them... you get the idea.

 

YEPPPPP

 

Good list my thoughts:

• WoW I think it should be limited to 1 target, but still be usable on either allies or enemies.
• Nimble Strike, should have the move reduced to 3, or damage reduced to 1 or 2, or have some type of drawback (like halt which is probably too extreme). I would say move 3.
• Resistant Hide I think could be left alone, since it is already restricted to 1 per wizard, but if nerfed I would lean towards stopping all elemental only (including cold) but have it a 5/6 roll, AKA 2+
• Wall of Stone should be removable like a terrain effect (same with any other wall or smoke bomb)
• For WW/WWE I like the idea of limit on the movement. But I think having be exact like maze takes away from the randomness that is thematic of the card. I would recommend move 1-5 random spaces, so an average it moves a player 3 spaces which is an average single move. (But I do love when it brings all the players within 3 spaces of each other, makes for a quick game.)
• I don't think Nimbus is a problem, but I think all damage is reduced to 1 not subject to armor (since nimbus is considered after armor and blocks anyway) is fitting.
• I think Short p. ray is fine, 3 is really close range.
• Toughness.... I think it is OP, but somehow I think it should be. My complex idea is that it should require facing for melee/missel to trigger but not for magic.
• Firestorm is just plain old fashion annoying (as is volcano, but that is much less rare). I think it should require LoS like Flash of Pain does, so it is still global but you have the chance to hide.

Additionally I do think there should be something other than Arrogant Armor and Purge to deal with cold/encumbrance. I think that fire should negate cold encumbrance (so getting hit with a fire spell or a lava terrain would remove the cold card attached). Seems odd to be frozen in place and hurt by lava.

 

Balance Toughness to either remove the card draw or only function from the front (i.e. Weak Armor).
Every other card is fine.

 

What constructive feedback! ...

If anything is broken it is Whirlwind / Whirlwind Enemies more than any other card in the game. Nimble Strike is right next to it.

Right now there is no counter to WW/WWE. Have blocks? Well WW/WWE just threw the rest of your team. Your entire team have blocks and they all succeed in blocking? Congrats, you just wasted 3 cards to the enemy's one. The only counter to WW/WWE is to use WW/WWE yourself and hope you get lucky. That's not good gameplay, it isn't fun, and there is no meaningful or interesting decisions.

 

Generally, I agree with your statements. But for the sake of argument, there are some strategic responses to the (a)WWful meta...
1) carry blocks that don't get pulled by WW, e.g. Desperate Block, Parry.
2) build your team so that one of your guys being isolated isn't a big deal (run team moves, balanced hp/speed characters like human warriors).
3) don't overextend tactically. Pass early and often.

So I don't think that WW completely removes meaningful decisions, but yes it reduces them greatly, and it punishes people for making decisions that would be good in a world without WW (like capping victory squares).

 

1) That doesn't stop WW/WWE -- just means you aren't using blocks. Not really a solution to the problem.
2) The most important "counter" -- but that essentially means building team synergies is meaningless over strong individual characters. Generally, this results in Warriors with high mobility being heavily dominant in the game because they are the best at "holding their own" especially with self move cards (hint: this is why WW/WWE teams usually run 2 Warriors with Nimble Strike and Team Run).
3) This is inaction and slows down gameplay. When the optimal choice is to "pass" over and over it leads to a boring game and is a huge flaw in the design.

WW/WWE removes more decision making in the game than any other card. When the game is focused on having team synergies, controlling locations, and card interaction -- WW/WWE just throws that all to the wind (pardon the pun).

 

Winds of war is fine as is.
There are plenty of ways to negate the 3 tile movements. The ones who seem to have the most trouble with the Move 3 are those who choose to only use dwarves. To not diversify their teams leaves them at a disadvantage movement wise, so the card does not need changing.

 

You obviously just have some grudge against Dwarves (hating Toughness and anything that would help Dwarves). WoW is simply too strong for what it does. If it kept the "move 3" then it would have to be a "target 1" or have much less range (like 4 range). Compare Improved Telekinesis (Gold Uncommon) to Winds Of War (Gold Uncommon). Clearly there is something going on with the insane power of Winds of War. Most likely it is both a problem with WoW being too strong and Improved TK being too weak. I'd honestly go for nerfing WoW (move targets 2) and buffing Improved TK (more range), but at that point the cards become pretty much the same. Simply making WoW only a move 2 would be enough to hurt control wizards for the time being before re-evaluating their balance.

 

Wall of Stone should be Cleansable. Period.
WW/WWE is not fun. It's annoying and takes away from the game.

Toughness is a great card and people won't stop complaining about it. It's fine people.
Nimble Strike is very good and is becoming too common in the current game.
Short P. Ray is very strong and is similarly becoming more common and obvious that it is undervalued and overpowered.
Winds of war is too good. However unlike the last two it is a Gold quality card and you do have to pay for it somehow.
Nimbus may be undervalued at Silver as well.

That's the fact that I keep coming back to. The fact is that the quality/item level system isn't perfect. It *Has* enough potential ways to adjust and balance the game when necessary, but nothing has really been done yet. Also, while Inspiring Presence was nerfed before it passed the so called "Rarity Barrier", Nimble Strike and Short P. Ray are well on their way.
Oh, and at the end of the day, I don't give a crap about any of these cards. My problem is with certain Wizard items which make up the most ridiculous, resilient build known to Cardhuntria.

 

I think an elegant, intuitive, moderate nerf to WoW would simply be to limit the target's destination square to ones within range 3 LOS of the target. That way it's really more of a dual super-barge with free choice of direction. After all, I've never seen a wind that could go around corners (well, I've never seen a wind at all... you know what I mean.)

Concurrent to that, why not add Fly (or the equivalent effect) to the telekinesis cards? I think this would be intuitive too. You're picking dudes up with your mind but you presently can't float them up and over a spike pit? Absolutely lizardiculous.

 

What if Winds of War was changed from Push 3 to Slide Back 3? Or at least, it can only push people in straight lines.
On one hand, it *Should* still be ok at pushing people away. On the other hand, you can't drag people onto lava.

 

Re-post I made in the Upcoming Balance Change (https://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/upcoming-balance-change-7-jan-2014.4992/). Figured I'd put it here too.

---

Here's a quote from Marc Merril (president of Riot Games, maker of "League of Legends" (LoL)) on them changing Champion balance that I think might be important (sorry for all the LoL references, but I was heavy into that game state for 4 1/2+ years):

Considering the insane success of LoL I think they are doing something right and that buffing / nerfing shouldn't be "forbidden candy" if it improves the overall game. I'd be willing to wager that more people play Card Hunter for a fun and engaging experience than simply to collect things (especially considering that almost all collection is very random, so losing power to some item you randomly found isn't as hurtful as losing something that you specifically went for like a Champion in LoL). Sure, you'll lose some players who feel alienated that their item lost some of its value (thus my suggestion about allowing full value re-selling for a limited time after the change), but you'll gain and sustain more players by having a healthy and balanced game.

 

That would be an interesting change. I still think WoW being move 2 would be better, but I really like the idea of TK cards being "Fly" or something. That would definitely make them useful for pushing enemies over difficult terrain. I'll add that on my "buff suggestion" list that I'll be putting together over the next month.

 

I like this idea a lot. I agree that Telekinesis (Improved or Standard) should ignore control zones and so forth. It's magically moving a person as if they were an object! Having Telekinesis apply a 'Flight' effect would work great.

Could just be me that agrees with you, though.. I also hold a seemingly minority opinion that the current interaction between Teleport and Encumber is out of whack, but oh well!

 

Winds of war is fine as is. If it was only "Move 2" then it would not be effective against those who use humans and elves.

Toughness is should function like Weak Armor by preventing damage only from the front.

Nimble Strike is fine. The damage is minimal for the movement, and the user can easily be encumbered to prevent effective usage of the card.

Whirlwind is fine. It takes skill to use the card effectively but using it comes at a high risk.

Firestorm is fine. If you are up against a person who has stacked their mage with those spells then that mage has little to nothing else. All you need to do is rush the mage.

 

WoW would not be effective against those who use humans and elves? Huh? It cancels out a human's movement completely at 3... that's effectively a re-position, damage dealing, card advantage item with good range. That isn't fine at all when you can get a 2+ card advantage with that much flexibility.

Also, Nimble Strike is not fine and neither is Whirlwind / Whirlwind Enemies. If they were fine you would see some diversity in the top builds. Why do you see 90% of the time NS + WW/WWE teams? Because they are too strong!

As for Firestorm, I'm mixed. After the latest Inspiring Presence nerf it has dropped out a bit. However, it can still be annoyingly strong if the enemy happens to have 2 or 3 Wym's Lavastaff items. Granted, I think the problem lies more in Resistant Hide than Firestorm, but I wouldn't mind reducing the power of both slightly.

P.S. You mean Weakened Armor

 

Bwahahaha! Easily encumbered.
You have got to be kidding me. You would need to use a minimum 2 cold spells to stop someone with Nimble Strikes. I just think that's funny.

Winds of war is a Gold quality card, and it does do 2 things at once. Compare that to Toughness or Demonic Power. Leave it alone.

Speaking of Toughness, it makes no sense to turn it into some sort of gimpy block card that requires facing. Generally the problem with Toughness is that you struggle to reach an enemy dwarf wizard with the card, you try and hit them and Clank! Toughness. Requiring facing seems like a moot point when you are being stared down by a wizard with frost and winds flying at you. I just don't see the point.

Whirlwind/Whirlwind Enemies is such a random card. If the effect isn't going to change, I would like to see it made into a 1 per deck card. It's an annoying card that just throws the game into air and lets the pieces fall where they may. It's not a strategy, it's a crapshoot, and as it has been pointed out before there isn't any counterplay and it detracts from the game. You think it takes "skill to use it effectively"? You think that there is a "high risk" involved? Well you probably aren't aware of the math involved. Since you wouldn't play Whirlwind when you are in a good position, there is always a higher chance that playing Whirlwind in a bad situation will do more good than harm. It's just not fun to play against whirlwind unless you get quite lucky.

Firestorm is pretty hard to get, it can backfire, and as it has been pointed out, it limits the other cards you have available. Seems legit to me.