A new guild scoring system

Discussion in 'Guilds' started by Farbs, Dec 20, 2018.

  1. Farbs

    Farbs Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Hi,

    Before I dive into this, I'd like to remind everyone that Guilds are not an official feature of Card Hunter. They're part of a side project I cobbled together using the publicly available Card Hunter API and which I host on my own server. Flax kindly donates his time to distribute prizes and write up the season descriptions, and I foot the server bill and occasionally update things, like I have done today. Jon has generously agreed to provide prizes in the form of pizza vouchers.

    Recently it's seemed like people are quite unhappy with the guild system, and they've been asking that we take a look at how it's running and even consider shutting it down. I'd like to give it another chance, but I agree it's time for a big shake-up. It was intended to be a way for players to help each other, by giving everyone something they can do for someone else. More recently it seems to have become fiercely, if not viciously, competitive. That's not so great.

    With that in mind, I have changed the guild scoring system to the following:

    Every time a guild member wins a ranked match against an opponent not from their guild, they earn one point.

    ...and that's it. There are no points lost for losing, there's no score multiplier for blitzing, and every guild starts each season with zero points.

    These rules have already taken effect. Please let me know if you find any bugs or other odd behaviour in the guild systems over the next few days, as this change touches a few other systems like history lists, MVP lists and season stats.

    I'm hoping these changes will help bring the guilds back into the positive, enjoyable experience they started out as. My fingers are crossed.
     
  2. Derek

    Derek Orc Soldier

    You might want to (temporarily) include the date that the new scoring system went into effect on the homepage (since its the middle of the season), or provide a link to here, in order to stave off confusion when people check their history and see unexpected point values. I imagine lots of people use the meta site but don't check the forums (or the meta homepage but I'm not sure what you can do about that).

    I hope this works as intended, but I hope this system remains open to future refinement in order to make guilds even more enjoyable for all.
     
  3. Scarponi

    Scarponi Moderator

    Looks like losses are recording as negative contribution (-1pt).
     
    Farbs likes this.
  4. Farbs

    Farbs Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Ah damn. Can you be more specific about that? ie are you seeing this in the history log, in the MVP list, in guild contributions lists, in the guild's season score, or somewhere else?

    There's a known bug where a loss against a Knave reports as 1 point, but AFAIK it isn't actually affecting anything other than the history list.
     
  5. Farbs

    Farbs Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Update: I've fixed the knave history bug.
     
    Sir Veza likes this.
  6. battlezoby

    battlezoby Kobold

    > Every time a guild member wins a ranked match against an opponent not from their guild, they earn one point.
    > ...and that's it.
    Um.... this seems to imply that you're not going to divide by the number of guild members.
    Is that correct?
    Another way to word this is: Are the winning guilds the ones with
    a) Largest number of average wins per member, or
    b) The largest total number of wins regardless of the number of people playing.

    If "b)", it would very much favor "the more guild members the better." If "a)" it would encourage
    guilds to "kick out" inactive players if possible, or form new guilds without them if "kicking" isn't possible.

    I feel like commenting further, but without any answer to the above, I'd have to continue to comment on both
    possibilities seperately because the effect of each method would be so drasticly different from one another.
     
  7. Farbs

    Farbs Blue Manchu Staff Member

    A good question. It's b.

    HOWEVER

    There are two mechanisms pushing back against the formation of one super global megaguild. These are:

    1) The prizes do not scale with guild size. So if you're keen to earn some pizza you'll want to join the smallest guild with a shot at winning any. If you join a team of 1,000 you probably won't get a prize.
    2) A large guild will have more matches against itself, which don't earn any season points. The more players a guild has, the slower each member is at accumulating points.
     
  8. Temaukel

    Temaukel War Monkey

    This is great. I thought about something like this when I made the "guild drama" post. But I wanted to direct that to the community first, most of them having supported that post, and I would like to thank them. And thanks you, devs, for taking action on it. I really think this will help the game.

    By the way, I like "b" also. :p
     
  9. Temaukel

    Temaukel War Monkey

    Hey, after last update it seems system keeps giving -1 guild point for each loose. Just in case it's relevant. (Player History Log and it seems Guild History Log as well. I don't know how to check in guild season points).
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  10. Farbs

    Farbs Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Thanks for reporting this.

    Do you just mean the red "1" appearing in history logs in some circumstances? That's just a bug in how the history is displayed, can clean that up tonight.
     
  11. battlezoby

    battlezoby Kobold

    BTW... if you're actually able and willing to update Cardhunter, how about adding a 2nd Loot Bandit or similar.
    Loot Bandit was introduced when there were a lot less maps (or so I hear), and now you rarely ever hit him due to
    the huge number of maps he can be on.

    A second Loot Bandit would presumably make him show up more and be closer to the original intent. It might help
    encourage people to play CH more, although I guess, in theory, it could be bad if it pulled people into solo
    loot-bandit hunts and away from Multiplayer and Coop.
     
    Kornl and Robauke like this.
  12. Gingrich Yurr

    Gingrich Yurr Thaumaturge

    I think this is an amazing change. It will be great not just for guilds but for the meta in general. A lot of players, including more competitive ones, have said that they feel more comfortable now in playing off-meta decks and trying fun things out, rather than needing to play a competitive meta build in order to contribute. Even a tryhard like myself also feels compelled to play some of the wacky build ideas I've had over the years, where I've been reluctant to do so previously. I believe, and hope, that this change will lead to more friendly guild interactions and a more fun and diverse playing environment.
     
    Sir Veza, Derek and Temaukel like this.
  13. Temaukel

    Temaukel War Monkey

    That's what I meant! And then headed right to my bed. Sorry about no answer last night. Thanks!
     
  14. Graxus

    Graxus Kobold

    I dont like the new system because its a big step to quantity over quality.
    Recruiting everybody you can get is the new way to get a high guild ranking, no matter if those ppl never played a ranked game and just face gary and amy, they still contribute points.
    Imho defeating a player from a top guild should be worth more than a victory over gary.
    I am sure the new system will have the effect that more games are played, simply because the removal of the loss point system means that ppl dont have to fight till the end.
    As you dont loose anything anymore ppl will leave the battles that look like they not gonna win it and start a new one.
    So we will surely have a lot of half played battles which takes a lot of fun out of the game.
    With the blitz system some ppl were actually taking risks because there was a way to score more points, now everybody will just play the secure way which makes battles simply more boring.
    I cant understand how someone can put a change like that into a running season after a 24h poll in which 17 ! ppl expressed their oppinion ???
    Letting the poll run longer and implant the system to the start of the next season would have been the proper way.
     
    Derek, gurel2 and Dark Brightness like this.
  15. Dark Brightness

    Dark Brightness Orc Soldier

    Honestly I'm not a guy to comment on things like these in public, but this system as you said is a big skahe up.
    So let's review the plus and minus.
    +last day push runs and ridiculous loss of gp which has countless times frustrated and made me quit experimenting around messy ideas is something that got removed and I'm quite happy about it. No more whooping pushes on last days (for the better or worst) and finaly I swear to God, no more - 12 points or more because you happened to have awful draws and to play to just win 2 max.

    +as Gingrich said, now there's gonna be more easy to test a wild variety of decks, since you're not risking anything great to lose.

    +it's gonna give more chances to hardworking people which dedicate a lot of time into this game.

    -Quality gone, now it's gonna be about quantity, which is not the best thing to happen, but honestly I don't care.

    -Removal of blitz. About this one I'm quite perplexed. It's fine to not give bonus points when you win against opponent from another guild, but I don't see reason why it should be removed. This can make game quite a bit monotonous and over extended, since ppl won't risk much.

    -At last days when the guilds are gonna have a really small point difference I foresee stalking tactics when opponent loses. I have witnessed and been victim of them and honestly this is something that really pisses me off only by thinking about it. Taking 10 Mins extra to just sit and stare at the screen to wait the opponent to finaly make another pointless move which doesn't have impact on the result of the battle is something I will not tolerate. Reporting? Sure, I will go ahead even when I barely do at all. But when the punishment will arrive? Will it ever arrive? The answer for a lot months until community makes a ruckus is gonna left in the corner and sit there always unsolved.(like sniping issue)
    Not to mention that guilds with a lot of amount people are gonna abuse it all the freaking time. Now let me ask would play at all if you have been stalled so much to barely finish 2 matches instead of 4 or more?
    Also since guildies don't lose points, they are gonna resign righ after one of them once they get matched up so no farbs, I disagree with you on that, this is not gonna help much at all when the guild has unity into it.

    -Thrill gone, yes no more win making of the month epic matches when your adrenaline pumps or you feel excited and trying your hardest, no more competition, everything becomes for me mundane. Now the whole system is all about grind, grind and grind. Not an issue for me, but like I said it's gonna be a bit boring procedure.

    Last but not least, I don't see how this is gonna resolve "guild drama" and what even guild drama? Because the sniping issue was always around. Some people didn't like at all when someone brought a counter deck to their own, some others didn't care and we got the last bunch that they did everything they could to get the crown, no matter how much dirty and unsportsmanlike it is. So when the first bunch reported and got an answer that it's purely "fair game" , I'm not impressed that some people got pissed off and started chasing the ones which harrased the first party LONG time now. So now when they get the taste of their own medicine they go and complain about it as a group, the change has to be made only right now ?
    Previously when this happened but only few reported and most of them got discouraged to keep playing, especially on lasts days frequently, eventually making people stop playing or even quiting, what did anyone got in return? Nothing.
    If anything all of this escalated to this far because you have been too lax about it moderators, way too lax. You ignored the issue completely and didn't bat eye to it until it became extreme. Honestly all of this is silly, the whole reason for this "change", but I'm personaly embracing it thanks to the huge faults of the previous system. Also regarding the description "those poor souls" involved with it will known what I'm talking about.

    I won't speak in detail neither answer any more questions about it.

    And regarding this bringing solution, my answer is no. I like competitive gameplay getting challenged, playing tough matches, either winning or get smashed my face on and if anything my personal gameplay behavior won't change no matter how much the guild system gets twisted. I seek for strong opponents and I seek challenge, whether it's too aggressive for others, all I got say this is they are not ready to really compete neither ready to trully aim for prices, which for me at this point are the least reason I'm competing anymore. This is the path of improvement and I fully brace it.
    Oh the most important one, being aggressive in gameplay what does it have to do with "drama", when you're acting around humbly and not lowering or flaming the loser party ?

    TL;DR I'm fine with any change to guild system as long the old ones faults won't be present anymore,no matter how much silly the reason for it is or gonna be.
     
    Derek, Auburn and gurel2 like this.
  16. Nero313

    Nero313 Mushroom Warrior

    I fail to see how the actions that caused these changes are not abusive behavior, going against the rules. It was stated that I said **** (asterisks ) and got banned; it was not proved and i don't believe this actually happened.... Therefore, why not BAN, BAN, BAN? I mean players are admitting to erroneous reporting and purposely harassing. I would say that a group of people that have admitted to and continue to do the previous mentioned actions are far more damaging than asterisk. Asterisks are block-able in game, the confessed behavior.... is not. So, I call for a mass banning of these players; it is the rules the game set forth. If complaints that can not be verified get overly harsh punishments, verified complaints should be subject to, at the very least, the same heavy hand. If not ban.... take the pizza... a overly harsh punishment is needed here.
     
  17. Farbs

    Farbs Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Please remember that not contesting a match violates the Card Hunter rules. If you do not believe that your opponent has contested the match please report them.
     
    Sir Veza and Flaxative like this.
  18. Auburn

    Auburn Guild Leader

    No negative points? So, this is just a farm competition now. Best strategy is to dodge the top players. Wait until dudes are in game and then play cardo. It's also to your benefit to only play the first 6 or so games with each character to max cardo games, then switch to another account to do more cardo. If quantity is most important, those 5 minutes waits for a game have to be avoided.

    Like Gurel mentioned, another top strat is creating endless toons, getting the first 10 guaranteed fast wins, then creating another new guy. Of course, if multiple guilds are using this strategy, there could be competition there.

    Analysis: this has taken the coolest aspect of competition out of Cardhunter. Whoever has Welfs will win.
     
    Dark Brightness and gurel2 like this.
  19. Robauke

    Robauke Guild Leader

    I welcome a change and at first glance it seems healthy for the playerbase to tone guilds down a bit. The more radical way would have been to get rid of the pizza rewards as well.

    I agree with Graxus that encounters between guilds should mean more, even if its just the old 2 pts for guild wins vs. 1 pts for non-guild wins approach. I will miss "Blitzes", given it could affect the match itself very directly, make you take risks to get the extra pts.

    I can't quite assess if pure member quantity will guarantee more points then a quality team, but would like to see people try.

    I definitly can't see how this reduction inevitably pressures anyone into low brow farming schemes. Thats a question of personal character. Maybe this change can be a reminder that you can choose to not choke whats left of this community with victory over everything behaviour. Whatever pressure you feel is your own creation.
    I got little hope. Those with the need to win at all cost will just keep that up and use all tools at their disposal, including timed queuing. That's already reality and won't rise in level. As Farbs stated, throwing games is against the rules, though i cant see the harm in reduced matchtime with ppl that are only interested in their aggregated scores.
     
    Gingrich Yurr, Scarponi and Sir Veza like this.
  20. Abbus

    Abbus Orc Soldier

    Hi, given that we "all" (not all, of course: unluckily there are a bunch of assholes out there) would like to stop watching unfair stuff going on, here is my simple question:

    Is it viable to ban people having their own alts affiliated in the very same guild?

    (first time for a week, second time for a month, third time forever)

    I mean exactly like when the secret soviet police was working hard in URSS during the cold war: if someone has the feeling that another player has multiple accounts in the same guild he/she can point it out to the "authorities" (lol) and they will check the information. If it's false, the person signaling will receive a negative feedback; on the other hand, if it turns out to be true, then devs will contact the owner and ask which account he/she wants to keep alive (all of the others alts will be deleted immediately and the player will receive his/her first warning).

    Just to mention it, I've never had a second account but I can understand people like my guildfellow Mitsuaki, whom had a second account (namely, Vibrant pain) just to enjoy CH without any stress to lose 40 elo points with his primary account when it was as high as 1970 points. At least, he had the decency to avoid signingup his second account to whatever guild. Do you want a second account? That's ok, but DON'T GUILD IT, please (even if I already get that this request sounds like asking to a veteran thief not to steal stuff from others).
     
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