I really dislike the idea of remove all attachments. There is definitely no need to make purge worse and make radiation bomb better! In a way, that removes purge as a counter to radiation... leaving radiation as a slot machine effect with no counter at all. It's fine if purge does or doesn't remove self inflicted handicaps. It's fine if purge does or doesn't remove opponents handicaps. The essential thing is that it be able to remove bad stuff the opponent put on you without also removing good stuff you put on yourself.
Sure. But if you have been following this conversation, unfortunately this is actually incredibly difficult given how the radiation attacks work.
We're only pushing to convert it back to its original state. It's not a nerf as much as a rebalance. And no, purge's potency bothers me a lot. It's already the ultimate catchall, and at paper quality; and it's already in such prime demand to put it in decks just due to all the high potency attachments the game has. Other than the ability to be put on non-priest characters, cards like Shrug it Off and Lateral Thinking are a bit lacking in enticement, despite their cantrip/draw card secondary effects, due to the prevalence of purge and 'better' racial cards. 'Nerfing' Purge makes such cards, as well as the 'add 3 handicaps/add 3 boosts/convert handicaps' cards in Citadel more inviting to put in deck. In terms of simplicity of changing the card, in terms of balance to availablity, and in terms of balance to other cards, this really seems the ideal solution.
The recent change to purge was intended to make it more useful. Nerfing it back to the stone age as a response to radiation interaction is silly. There is a reason you don't see people playing all-out purge decks. No matter how many nimble purges, vicious purges, purging steps, etc, you have in your deck, none of them does damage, and all of them can be nearly dead cards against some teams. Nerfing purge to death at the same time that you add the biggest slot machine attachment generator ever to the game would be crazy. Before the most recent change purge was remove enemy cards. That was an elegant definition which I still see nothing wrong with. Making it more useful by not removing enemy handicaps was an unnecessary change, as was making it remove your own handicaps. "Remove all enemy cards" and "remove all enemy cards plus all handicaps regardless of ownership" are both good solutions.
It isn't a change. It's due to ambiguous ownership of radiation induced cards (via attack or terrain), as well as other traits not drawn from the deck. The devs are having to recheck and rewrite all sorts of actions to get purge (et al) to work as Jon intends. And I like Jon's idea of what it should do. Ask any bulimic: Purging is cheap, bingeing is expensive. Bingeing should be at least Silver. I suspect some of my binges were Emerald or better, but I don't remember the details. Paper is fine for a basic purge.
Hmm? Yes, that was a change. Unless someone used Memory Loss on me, before the most recent change Purge didn't discard your own handicaps (like Blind Rage from Raging Battler). That is a change independent of radiation, and was actually intended to make Purge more useful. And I think you may have missed the current direction of the thread. Some people are saying we should abandon Jon's idea (purge being more useful), instead nerfing it back to the most useless state it has ever had. Presumably you agree with me that that is a bad idea. It's an especially bad idea because we just happen to have new mass random attachment generation added to the game. Combining that with nerfing purge to death is a terrible idea. Therefore I argued that, rather than switching direction and scoring an own goal, it might be preferable to make purge "discard all enemy cards" as it was recently, or "discard all enemy cards plus all handicaps".
One could argue that by having so much more handicaps in play, it's already made more useful inherently. Moreover, you're completely avoiding the topics I mentioned, and ignoring the fact that it's easier to add in more beneficial purge-type cards later, at higher quality tiers. There's absolutely no reason to make what would be a super versatile paper card into a stupendous miracle salve that only does what you want. Presumably not. Your premise is a point I use to validate the change. To DEATH. Wonder if you can purge that? I'm.. so confused. That's what it is currently, but the fact that it's not applying properly is the issue that brought this whole conversation up. What exactly are you trying to state here? Edit: I see by your last two posts you think that at some point it DID remove enemy handicaps [that it doesn't currently]. It never did.
To be honest (and despite the fact I've been among the ones to bring the "remove all attachments" behavior back in the discussion), I'm also a tad skeptical about what the full consequences of reverting purges to their old behavior might entail. I think that wouldn't constitute a straight nerf, as some are assuming, since purges would be a tad more versatile as a result. Say, for instance, you cast PoK (or other damage-dealing attachment) on an enemy, only to find out that your opponent had Sparkling Cloth Armor / Mimetic Armor or other similar card in his hand. At present time, you have no way of removing an attachment of yours from an enemy. As an alternative solution (though I'm not at all sure how practical this might be from an implementation standpoint) couldn't handicap cards be made that they always belong to the character they're being applied to? If that was the case, then there shouldn't be any way for purges to be unable to remove handicaps from allies, regardless where the handicap actually came from.
I did think that, but to be honest I'm so confused now I don't know any more. I feel like before the most recent change purge would not remove your own blind rage, but would remove your opponent's blind rage. And now it is switched, it will remove your own blind rage but not the opponent's. At least I'm not the only one who remembers that: In other words, it appears to me that the bug is caused by the most recent change in purge. If it was a simple "remove all enemy cards" then it would remove handicaps generated by opponent's radiation. But again, by this point I'm so confused this could be way off.
No, because most handicaps generated by opponent's radiation are not opponent-controlled. That's why we made the purge change in the first place.
It did actually. It originally removed all attachments, period. (And didn't get much play.) Then it was changed to remove all enemy controlled attachments, including their handicaps. Then Careful, only handicaps created in hand by opponents radiation are not opponent controlled, handicaps created not in hand by opponent's radiation (from terrain, or rad bolt/bomb) are opponent controlled. As I outlined here.
That doesn't make sense to me. There seem to be 3 possibilities for handicaps generated by radiation: 1. The person they attach to owns them 2. Nobody owns them 3. The radiation user owns them It can't be 1. If it was, you would be able to purge handicaps generated by opponent's radiation, because it would belong to you, and currently you can purge handicaps that belong to you no problem. It can't be 2. If it was, nobody would be able to purge handicaps generated by radiation. But currently one side can, and one side can't. There must be ownership issues. That only leaves 3. The user of radiation owns the handicap, and therefore they can purge it. The victim of the handicap does not own it, and can not purge it. Edit: I see Scarponi already covered this in depth. DunDunDun, why are you confusing me like this when you already "liked" Scarponi's post that explained it?
This is getting pretty confusing pretty quickly. Please correct me if I got anything wrong. Hopefully (?) this also helps with clarifying things further for everybody. A long time ago Purge used to remove all attachments. Then it was changed to only remove enemy-controlled attachments (including handicaps). This is the version most players should be familiar with. In this previous version, Purge couldn't be used to remove your own attachments or handicaps (including Blind Rage and others). Similarly, Purge did remove all enemy-controlled attachments, which includes stripping enemies of their own handicaps. Finally, with EttSC, Purge was made it so it would remove handicaps controlled by allies, but not handicaps controlled by your enemy. Since some EttSC cards can result in enemy-controlled handicaps being attached to your own guys, but purges do not remove enemy-controlled handicaps anymore, this seem to be what is causing the behavior discussed in this topic.
My comments are based on the previous elements in this thread, and still seem to match. Given that I can't follow your intent or perspective at all, KB, it could be reasonable to assume we're all more or less on the same page, but having difficulties expressing the same point clearly. I know for sure Scarponi's last post doesn't sync up to what I'm saying Which is this. Thanks, Bandy
No problem! Though I wouldn't 100% trust anything I happen to be writing at this hour of the night. No seriously, that was the better understanding and explanation I could come up with. Which also seems to be pretty much in line with @Scarponi's extensive testing results. I could still be wrong though, the card interactions involved with this issue seem to be among the most complex we ever dealt with in the whole history of CH.
Hey, I'm just glad my memory isn't broken. I really started to question if purge removed enemy handicaps before the most recent change, until Dwedit's post.
as a purge fan i would like to add a comment, great to see a disscusion going on about purge. personally i think the safest solution would be if purge would not only purge enemy debuffs but also your own buffs. this is a downside for purge users, so you have to make choices. Purge should remove handicaps casted by the enemy. Some curses make the game unplayable and it would be fair if we have the option to build purges in our decks to solve the problems
