There's lots of discussion about which cards are over/under valued, but it mostly focuses on isolated cards. So I thought I'd take a look at the values for all the cards of certain type to see how they compare. Note: the in-game hint about card quality names them "Black, Paper, Bronze, Silver, Gold, Green, Purple" and the mixture of colors and materials bugs the heck out of me, so I'm changing them to "Tar, Paper, Bronze, Silver, Gold, Emerald, Amethyst". Remember that quality represents the card's power and determines the item's level, while rarity represents the complexity and determines the item's rarity. Starting with the armors (because I sorted the spreadsheet alphabetically): Code: Common Uncommon Rare ------ ------ -------- ---- Tar Ill-Fitting Armor ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper Cloth Armor Weakened Armor Toughened Hide Strips Reliable Hide Armor Officer's Harness Rusty Armor Leather Harness ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper + Mail ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze Hardy Mail Rushing Aura Shimmering Aura Holy Armor Chain Harness Thickened Mail Thick Hide Armor ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver - Heavy Armor ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver Solid Mail Spiked Mail Reliable Mail Resistant Hide Flight Aura Arrogant Armor ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver + Crafted Mail ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold Toughness Frenzy Aura Grounding Plates Arcane Aura Dynamic Armor Enchanted Harness Horned Plates Arcane Shell ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold + Inspiring Armor ------ ------ -------- ---- Emerald Enchanted Mail My opinions: the quality values are pretty good; I'd just boost Reliable Hide Armor, Resistant Hide, and Toughness by one full level each. But the rarities are horrible: I'd make Mail, Crafted Mail, and Reliable Mail common; make Holy Armor, Thick Hide Armor, Shimmering Aura, and Inspiring Armor uncommon; and make Resistant Hide and Toughness rare.
Worth noting that if Toughness were rare and emerald, Perfect Toughness wouldn't be in the game. Just a fun fact! Not that I disagree with your suggestions. I was about to say "It would be an epic item instead of a common!" and then I realized it would ALSO be a level 24 item.
Reliable Hide is fine at Paper. Compare 100% reduce by 1 with 50% reduce by 2 (Mail). If anything, give Cloth Armor a boost. For example, if Cloth Armor blocks damage from a cold spell, don't attach it. (It's thick, warm clothing!) Toughness is fine if you remove the card draw from it. Resistant Hide: Everyone has their own suggestion how to fix it. My preference is Roll 2+, reduce damage by 1, prevent all fire, cold and poison damage if it triggers. Note that it's easier to change a card effect rather than quality or rarity, because it leaves the relevant items unchanged. As for rarity, I don't like the entire current rarity system. I don't think it makes the right items rare. See my sig.
I am fine with the current rarity system, but it bugs me that certain items are rare with 0 rare cards on them. (Improvised Halberd, Slippery Sword, Staff of Winter). I think that some rare cards should be common and some common cards should be rare, but it shouldn't be a problem if the items are put together properly. Many aren't. Items are made by (intelligent) well-meaning human beings. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. But I digress.. I am also fine with the current quality system; however a lot of cards have the wrong quality. And when you put those undervalued cards on the same item... you can create overpowered items. Certain rare cards are pretty bad, and overvalued based on the quality system. Then when you get an epic/legendary item with just the right combination of cards so that the resulting item is terrible, unusable, and wholly inferior to a less rare item... it just makes you want to cry or yell or something. Frankly it sucks. Rarer items should be better than regular items. Your epic/legendary items should help define you as a player.
Just as an epic has 2 rare cards and a legendary has 3, you can have rares built on having enough uncommons, right? It makes sense to me...
If they were, the game would be pay-to-win or farm-obsessively-to-win. Card Hunter has deliberately opted to keep regular items competitive. The rare items are meant to give you more build options or make unusual builds possible, not to be an instant advantage. The way the game does it, it's possible to be successful in MP straight after finishing the SP campaign if you have the skill. I think this is a laudable philosophy from Blue Manchu. The problem with the system is that unfortunately some rare items actually are better than the regular ones. The legendary Vibrant Pain, as everyone knows by now, offers an undeniable competitive advantage to anyone owning it. There are several legendary and epic items which are clearly best-in-class — the many arcane items with two Firestorms, for example. This can lead to people obsessively hunting for them, which isn't healthy for anyone involved. From anecdotal evidence it seems owning such items actually does lead to better performance in MP. Blue Manchu must know from the match result and player inventory data available to them how strong the correlation is and whether it's large enough to badly undermine their stated design intentions. To keep the philosophy pure they would need to do something about these items.
I agree. Some rares need to be better than the more common items and worth searching out, because that is a form of advancement in the game, but none should rise to the level of tactical nukes.
I don't think that some cards need to be better than others like it's some kind of law of CCG's. This is just how it usually is in CCG's because that's how they make money. With traditional CCG's like MtG, if you don't sell cards, you are not making any money. This is why it makes sense to have cards that are universally better that others, so that people by booster packs or whatever. It's different in Card Hunter though because they make money with club memberships, costumes, etc. It all depends on the basic philosophy behind the game. Do we want Card Hunter to a game where people are encouraged to collect items while PvP is unbalanced because of certain legendary items? Or do we want Card Hunter to be a balanced PvP game where having a large collection doesn't give you an advantage, only gives you more options in deck building? I personally prefer the latter. If the game is fun to play, there's shouldn't be a need for overpowered legendary items.
Okay, once again we disagree. My position: - A level 12 axe should be universally better than a level 1 axe, aside from token cost. - There should be rare clubs better (situationally or universally) than common clubs. Otherwise you could collect all 24 common items available during your first run, and play over and over using the same cards. It works for euchre, and I play euchre, but CH is a different animal entirely. Card hunting should obviously be a driver in a game called Card Hunter, and there is little point in hunting if there is nothing to gain. p.s. - I believe I addressed overpowering items. Cheers!
I'm not opposed to collecting cards, I'm opposed to some rare cards being significantly better than everything else (Vibrant Pain etc.). This kind of system increases the amount of pay-to-win and farm-to-win, because it diminishes the role of skill and increases the role of inventory. I can understand this design philosophy from a business standpoint, but I don't think it makes the game better. And it's not like item collecting suddenly became pointless if all ridiculously powerful items were nerfed. We would still collect new items because they give us new deckbuilding options. For example if I wanted to play a Firestorm deck (which I definitely don't btw), I would have to collect all kinds of rare items before I could do so. And these rare items would only be different, not better. This would enable a casual player to collect only a couple of cards and still be competitive by using his skill. Hardcore gamers on the other hand wouldn't have a huge item advantage over that casual player but they would have a lot more options. But I understand people feel differently about this. Some people don't like PvP that much and prefer hunting treasures in SP. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this. It all depends on what you personally look or in a game.
True dat. I think we're crossed up on the semantics of Deck Building Options vs Better. "There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." - John Steinbeck Edit: Extended Quote
A reminder about power (quality/level) vs complexity (rarity): (source) I thought the devs said flat out that they wanted rare items to be more complex, not more powerful, than other items at that level, but I can't find a quote right now. On to the next batch of cards: Assists Code: Common Uncommon Rare ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper Bungled Heal Demonic Feedback Savage Curse Minor Heal Bad Medicine Unholy Frenzy Righteous Frenzy Misguided Heal ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze Healing Presence Healing Pulse Shrug It Off Light Heal Help the Weak Twin Heals Limited Heal ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver - Inspiration Shuffle, Team! Retreat ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver Heal Healing Blessing Lateral Thinking Walk, Team! Impenetrable Nimbus Mass Frenzy Battlefield Training Martyr Blessing Team Heal Boosted Heal Unholy Energy ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver + Run, Team! ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold - Dash, Team! Inspiring Presence ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold Dwarven Battle Cry Forward Thinking Bless Greater Heal Leadership Soothing Darkness Scuttle, Team! Pathfinding Advanced Battlefield Training Accelerated Thought Demonic Power Consecrate Ground Unholy Wellspring ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold + Scamper, Team! Sprint, Team! ------ ------ -------- ---- Emerald Healing Rays Inspirational Thinking This... is just a mess. I'd start by saying team pushes with Free Move should be Rare and the ones without should be Uncommon. And no way is Help The Weak the same power level as Twin Heals. And Savage Curse is not three tiers below Unholy Wellspring in power.
In a Dev Diary, it was stated: Twin Heals should be Heal 3 to two targets; it's hard enough to get 1 target to use it on, just like it is hard to get the most out of Healing Pulse. Scuttle, Team is overvalued at Gold. So is Soothing Darkness and Consecrate Ground for that matter. So is Savage Curse undervalued, Wellspring overvalued, or both? Also, I would like to see Shrug it Off remade into a Trait which discards Enemy attachments.
If you'd decide card rarity levels with a dart board and a war monkey, you'd probably end up with the above table. The Move, Team! cards flip flop between common and uncommon. For Battlefield Training, the weak card is a common, the strong card is a rare. For Lateral / Inspirational Thinking, it's the other way around. The weaker Twin Heals and Team Heal are rare, but Healing Rays is a common. If rarity was a measure of complexity, why isn't Misguided Heal a rare? It's a useful card but it has many complex interactions that create gotcha moments for newbies. As for power levels, the major issues are in the silver tier. Martyr Blessing and Impenetrable Nimbus are great cards that can win a game if you draw them at the right time. Lateral Thinking and Battlefield Training are useless. The rest are somewhere in between.
I think card rarity is determined by how often a card appears on items. Changing it now would require rebuilding lots of items, and I don't see that happening. I can see Help The Weak and Twin Heals being in the same general range. One heals 4 (2 to 2 targets, but never the caster), the other heals 5 to the lowest hit point team ally. I definitely prefer Help The Weak, but every classification needs a top and bottom end. I find Savage Curse to be lousy. Discarding my oldest card whenever playing an attack made me run out of everything very quickly. I tried it a few times, but did better without it. To me, Unholy Wellspring is WAY better. I guess YMMV.
I think it is meant to be used with AE attacks like Firestorm. Or you could use it on an enemy - I'm sure there's some situations where that'd be useful.
I am pretty sure Savage Curse is supposed to be lousy. It's nice to put on an enemy when you have Parry or Nimbus ready. That being said, it's phenomenal in SP where your wizard can just sit there and fire off attacks dealing 5-11 damage because you discard your move card first, then play your last card for free. Unholy Wellspring only lasts 2 turns, and while it is otherwise a better card it does have a hefty cost. You basically have to run Pungent Incense, 7th circle charm, and/or Axe of the Dark Soul to get Wellspring. And those aren't cheap. Twin Heals is a lousy (rare!) card compared to all of the other bronze heals. I've used it extensively, and you seldom get 4 healing out of it, most of the time it is only 2 points because you can't see both targets or one has full health. Compare that to Help The Weak which is *amazing*, but also Limited Heal (4 points, ST) and Light Heal (3 points, ST), not to mention Healing Pulse. Twin heals is essentially a minor heal with more range. Look at Misguided Heal. Much better!!! You can kill an opponent with it, you can heal 2 to an ally, or if said ally has armor 2, it heals 4 points. And that is a paper with 8 range! I would even take Bungled Heal over Twin Heals since you can heal 5 points and trick an enemy into blocking it.
On to the attacks! Attack - Melee Code: Common Uncommon Rare ------ ------ -------- ---- Tar Backbiting Strike Weak Strike ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper - Sapping Touch ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper Bludgeon Draining Touch Simple Strike Stab Weak Chop ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper + Penetrating Cut Clumsy Chop Consuming Touch Able Bludgeon ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze - Trained Bludgeon Raging Strike Shifty Stab ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze Able Stab Predictable Stab Strong Bludgeon Simple Bash Tricky Stab Strong Hack Lunging Thrust Spear of Darkness ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze + Chop Reaching Swing Violent Overswing Lunging Strike Enervating Touch Perforating Strike Lunging Hack Lunging Bash Penetrating Lunge ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver - Puncturing Stab Dancing Cut Fiery Stab ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver Powerful Bludgeon Devastating Blow Barge Powerful Hack Vicious Thrust Nimble Strike Skillful Strike Strong Stab Able Bash Bash Strong Chop ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver + Potent Stab Shredding Strike Massive Chop ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold - Invigorating Touch Penetrating Stab ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold Mighty Bludgeon All Out Attack Obliterating Chop Mighty Hack Strong Bash ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold + Powerful Bash Impaling Stab Polearm Slash ------ ------ -------- ---- Emerald Obliterating Hack Anvil Strike Obliterating Bludgeon ------ ------ -------- ---- Amethyst Almighty Bludgeon Almighty Hack Now it's obvious that rarity has nothing to do with the actual complexity of a card, but instead is set so that certain powerful items are hard to get. I personally would swap the quality and rarity of Bash and Strong Bludgeon, for one example. (And I need to check the item formula to figure out how Hammer Of Bashing ended up Rare when it only has Common cards.) Attack - Magic/Projectile Code: Common Uncommon Rare ------ ------ -------- ---- Tar Arcane Curse Demonic Miasma ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper - Force Bolt Ember Spray Little Zap ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper Penetrating Zap Bad Luck Firestorm Zap Bungled Bolt Flash of Pain Wavering faith Unstable Bolt Stone Spikes Spark ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper + Burning Fingers Fire Spray Maze Long Spark Big Zap ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze - Short Spark ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze Dissolve Armor Chilling Rime Mind Worm Entangling Roots Cold Snap Flame Spit Powerful Spark Sorcerous Bolt Path of Knives Hot Spot War Cry Force Cone Force Blast Flame Jet Arcane Spray ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze + Acid Blast ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver - Devastating Spark ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver Boiling Armor Frost Jolt Cone of Cold Elvish Insight Acid Spray Deadly Spark Memory Loss Perplexing Ray Forgetfulness Sizzling Bolt Wall of Illusion Glob of Flame Touch of Death Sorcerous Blast Short Perplexing Ray Smoke Bomb Counterspell Wall of Stone Wall of Fire Ember Burst Surging Bolt ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold - Surging Blast Potent Spark ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold Mighty Spark Volcano Winds of War ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold + Fireball ------ ------ -------- ---- Emerald Obliterating Spark Freeze That's a lot of Silver cards, and not many Gold. And it's funny watching Sparks go from Common to Rare and back to Common as they get more powerful.
Good job Kalin! Can't wait to see the rest of the cards. It's very helpful to see this information formatted like this! Wizards have very few choices of Gold cards on arcane items. I mean, attacks: Winds of War and Volcano. Or Teleport Self/Reflexive Teleport/Improved TK. It would be great if you could add Staggering Blow, Cowardly Attack, Staggering Chop, and Unstoppable Chop to the list. They are*/were in the game and they could return in the future.
These values are intended to make items automatically balanced, so cards that don't appear on items will likely have crazy values. Crazier even than what we're seeing here. (Plus it would double the work for me; there are a lot of cards you never see on items.) Anyway, here's the rest of the tables: Block Code: Common Uncommon Rare ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper Flimsy Block Wounded Block Unreliable Block ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper + Weak Parry ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze - Weak Block Missile Block ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze Block Hit the Deck Stuck Arrow Parry Jarring Block ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze + Lifesaving Block ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver Desperate Block Hard to Pin Down Cause Fumble Icy Block Surging Shield Block ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold Shield Block Absorbing Block Acrobatic Flip Defender's Block Duck Boost Code: Common Uncommon Rare ------ ------ -------- ---- Tar Blind Rage ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze - Spark Inductor ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze Kindler Altruism Bruiser Dim. Traveller Healing Spirit Holy Presence Hover Impaler Slicer Spark Generator ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze + Firestarter ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver Immovable Quick Reactions Talented Healer ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold Slippery Handicap Code: Common Uncommon Rare ------ ------ -------- ---- Tar Arcane Feedback Brain Burn Combustible Cowardly Defensiveness Demonic Revenge Dropped Guard Fright Fumble Large Weapon Loner Mind Leak Obvious Maneuver Ouch! Slowed Superstitious Traveling Curse Trip Vulnerable ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper Squeamish Wimpy Move Code: Common Uncommon Rare ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper - Shuffle ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper Dangerous Maneuver ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper + Walk Wild Run ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze - Cautious Sneak ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze Run Charge Flanking Move Dodge ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze + Dash ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver Quick Step Elvish Mobility Escaping Run Spin Around Jump Back Scuttle Sprint Energizing Move ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold Quick Run Muscle Through Violent Spin Scamper Team Shift Reflexive Teleport Teleport Self ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold + Team Run Utility Code: Common Uncommon Rare ------ ------ -------- ---- Paper Purge Cleansing Presence ------ ------ -------- ---- Bronze Whirlwind Enemies Cleansing Ray Telekinesis Whirlwind ------ ------ -------- ---- Silver Cleansing Burst ------ ------ -------- ---- Gold Improved Telekinesis
