What deck wants this?

Discussion in 'Deck Building' started by Juxtapostion, May 7, 2015.

  1. Juxtapostion

    Juxtapostion Hydra

    Dancer's Dagger
    upload_2015-5-7_13-42-50.png upload_2015-5-7_13-42-50.png upload_2015-5-7_13-42-59.png upload_2015-5-7_13-43-38.png upload_2015-5-7_13-43-38.png upload_2015-5-7_13-43-55.png
    Other then watching @arkfaint us this item I don't really see it. It looks cool. I want to like it. Help me find its home.
     
  2. Rebel7284

    Rebel7284 Ogre

    for two gold tokens? Nearly no one. While blocks are good, the attacks just do way too little damage.
     
  3. PDXTai

    PDXTai Ogre

    Hmm. With those step attacks, elven maneuvers is a natural synergy. Re-positioning opponents with disorienting seems like it would go well with volcano. So maybe elf war, elf war, human wiz with the warriors sporting dancers dagger and crazy sal's (to boost damage) or double edged. The wizard would be volcano and illusory barrier. Basic idea is to charge the elves in and push people onto lava while using your step attacks to avoid lava.
     
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  4. arkfaint

    arkfaint Kobold

    @Juxtapostion, sry for late reply, I rarely use forum,what do u need to know?
     
  5. arkfaint

    arkfaint Kobold

    I changed the deck three times totally this month, tried 1 priest 1 warrior 1 mage and 2 mage 1 priest team, considered the map this month, finally I pick the current one.
     
  6. Shop seems like a decent home for that item. Well, you could try it with control wizard(s) that runs path of knives as additional trigger for the effect. I would run violent spin and stabs on warriror in that type of build. Anyway, the item seems too weak for wasting 2 major tokens. Disorienting block is really overvalued as golden for no reason, I think it should be move 2 at least to justify the value.
     
  7. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    The expectation is that you can maneuver the opponent so that they're then facing away from you so you can avoid their blocks; or so you can steal a victory point they're on.
    Of course, in practice, this benefit occurs less often than the cost of the items generally are worth, so you tend to just gear them up for specific encounters.

    But in most cases, even in favorable encounters, the whopping power of a bejeweled dominates the utility of such an item.
    And the fact is, an 11 damage attack should at best be comparable to a move one counter-block. But strangely, they're only silver, while the 'comparable' block is gold.
    And, thus, as you said, it's overvalued as a gold, when it's only comparable-at-best to a silver attack.
    And as such, until a rebalance is made, bejeweled [or similar] will very nearly always be preferable to a disorienting block item.

    Maybe Disorienting Block could 'eat' an opponent's oldest move card, as well, or apply halt, or similar. But yeah, as is, hard to ever find reason to equip an item with it.

    Edit:
    Disclaimer: My math is not always reliable.

    In more mechanical terms, comparing the two weapons directly, it essentially boils down to:
    Block + 4 damage dealt
    Versus
    11 + 11 damage dealt, + estimated 11 damage taken.

    For a net damage difference of 8 points.
    [or more precisely, 4+4+4+7[+11+11 blocked]= 41 versus 11+11+11+11+11+7+7=69, for an estimated 4.5 extra damage per attack, ignoring penetrating/armor elements.]

    Obviously, that's just a vague look at it, but it essentially points out the heart of the problem-
    the damage difference between copper and silver attacks is potent enough [ignoring the penetrating and step emphasis of dancer's dagger, that'd be part of the conditional benefit of it] that the difference between gold and silver needs to be similarly potent to balance out the weapons.

    So, certain conditional circumstances aside, you're (roughly) comparing move1/moveopponent1 to 4.5 extra damage dealt (or roughly 4 extra when accounting for the 2 penetrating attacks and basic armor).

    While certain victory point-based maps, or even terrain-caster heavy parties, may lean in favor of the dagger, the low damage of the non-penetrating attacks negates any benefit the weapon'd have over bewejeled against armored enemies.

    Add in the offensive-benefiting style of the game, and the fact is, the circumstances in which the dagger'd be comparable are few, and don't necessarily favor it even then- given that even on ideal maps, movement is circumstantially beneficial, while a notable dose of extra damage is always beneficial.

    So yes- either Disorienting needs to be dropped to silver, needs to be improved, or the gap between bronze and silver attacks needs to be narrowed. :X

    At the very least, it could make Striking Lunge a Penetrating Lunge as well, removing a bit of flavor in favor of superior balance- though given that the main issue of balance is between silver attacks and gold blocks, it's simply a passing gesture.

    Edit2:
    Of course, if we ever get backstab-heavy rogues in play, manipulating enemy location and facing may end up being more valuable- though whether even then it'd be enough to compensate for the damage spread between such items, is another matter.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
  8. Juxtapostion

    Juxtapostion Hydra

    Sweet I appreciate the feedback and discussion!

    @arkfaint I am curious how you came to choosing the dagger and why it worked in your build? I watched probably 10-15 games you played with your dwarfs and I think I saw you lose once. So it obviously can be used effectively. What I want to know is how its used effectively and what else does it play well with?

    @PDXTai Yeah I can see that working. I can also see them used with All Out Attack or something. Even just some mighty bludgeons. Any high damage attack in the back.

    @DunDunDun I see your point in the blocks not being comparable to the attacks. But for the weapon comparison
    the bejeweled short sword only has 4- 11 damage attacks. For a total of 58. So the actually difference in attacks (assuming the blocks are absorbing 11 damage) is 2.8.

    I know that in a warrior heavy attack meta that utility and blocks take a back seat. But, lets consider a few more things. Disorienting Block blocks magic and projectiles. This might seem insignificant but repositioning a wizard can have a huge effect. Either you can get your warrior 2 steps closer to catching the wizard or you can move the wizard out of a good line of sight. Just something to be considered when talking about this card. As for weapon comparison, obviously if you want straight damage run bejeweled, but I think that running Dancer's Dagger is for the blocks.

    That being the case lets make a separate comparison. Barreling Club Double yellow tokes, all 6 cards are attacks, but, 3 of those cards push the opponent 2. The total damage of the club is 48, only 7 damage higher then our previous exampled Dancer's total. The only thing that could give Dancer's an edge is of course the step attacks. How valuable are they really.

    If damage is the currency in weapon evaluation lets talk about how much damage you would be willing to trade for some tech. Lets make some assumptions, these are off the cuff so critique as led.
    Tech- value in terms of damage
    Penetrating- 2 damage, but up to 6?
    Step w/o fly- 3 damage per step? (this is comparing 11 damage silver attack with 4 damage silver Dancing Cut)
    Step with fly- How is this silver? 3 damage per step? 4? 5?
    Hard to block- probably a damage per difficulty ex- hard to block 3 is worth 3 damage
    Block removal- Straight up this is hard to calculate because its a huge swing, on an attack I would say its worth 3 damage
    Armor removal- 3 damage/
    Slide back- ??? as much fun as it is to move your opponents around i rarely find this mechanic useful so i don't know what to value it at
    Push- Um, 6 damage. or more specifically 3 damage per square pushed.

    Not a perfect analysis but, BUT, kinda puts some things into perspective. If we went with this scale of damage value then Disorienting Block should have a damage value total of

    3(for the step) + 3 (for the push/move) + x (the amount of damage blocked) = its 6 damage higher/better then what ever it blocks.

    And now, for the glaring limitation of blocks. They are swingy, unreliable, prayer's to RNG. But big risks come with big rewards.

    However the key to winning at Card Hunter is DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION
    So I think Dancer's Dagger stands a chance.
     
  9. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader Staff Member

    Dancer's Dagger is a bad item. That doesn't mean Disorienting Block needs a buff. If we buffed it a number of things would happen. A couple are: 1) the shield with 2x Disorienting Block (Shield of the Tumbler, I think?) would become silly strong; and 2) we'd be unable to print Disorienting Block on better items in the future.

    Level 18+ items with two Disorienting Blocks could look quite good:
    Disorienting Block, Disorienting Block, Powerful Hack, Powerful Bludgeon, Powerful Bludgeon, Ouch.
     
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  10. Juxtapostion

    Juxtapostion Hydra

    I like that item @Flaxative you made up :)

    Can you elaborate on why Dancer's Dagger is bad?

    And, I was not at all calling for a buff to Disorienting Block. I like it as is. Would like to see more items with it, etc.
     
  11. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader Staff Member

    Mostly you don't want a lot of penetrating lunges. They're shuffles at best for movement, and don't do much damage when you're attacking. Replacing one or two of them with Strong Hack would already improve the weapon tremendously. Also, Disorienting Block is best in combination with high-damage attacks, not low-damage step attacks. You generally want to use it to deliver hard hits (I know All Out Attack has already been mentioned in this thread).

    I know you weren't; DunDunDun made a suggestion and I just wanted to say I don't think the card needs changing. :)
     
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  12. Juxtapostion

    Juxtapostion Hydra

  13. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader Staff Member

    Yes, but probably still suboptimal because you don't want those Penetrating Lunges. I would maybe pair it with 1x Bejeweled and 1x Strongarm, then spend my remaining (minortoken)(minortoken) on increasing damage (say, Superb Impaling).
     
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  14. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    I generally prefer 3x block/dodge/etc shields over Shield of the Tumbler; That 3 damage attack is a handicap to the overall benefit of the card [a shuffled trait handicap would actually be more beneficial in more circumstances]. Add in that the shields I mentioned only cost (minortoken), versus (majortoken), and..

    So no, I'll stand by Disorienting Block being at least somewhat underwhelming- be it in comparison to silver attacks or to silver blocks, it doesn't really feel like a gold bordered card. Hell, in comparison to other gold-bordered cards [Duck, Defender's Block] it DEFINITELY doesn't feel like a gold-bordered card.

    Again, some of that has to do with the conditional elements of the move components. In an ideal situation, it could be a game-changer.
    However, the higher pip cost or weaker support cards [or in Shield of the Tumbler, both] generally do such a major job of handicapping you outside of the card that it's rarely worth equipping a Disorienting Block-based card, unless you've had prophetic visions of it changing the tide of a specific battle-
    And none of that negates that in a direct comparison to many silver or gold cards, it's an underwhelming card.

    Now, the specific things I made as passing suggestions for changes would likely swing that balance in the opposite direction, but that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve some reconsideration; even if it's just lowering the die to 2+ [Defender's is 3+, Duck is 4+, so that'd give a nice spread for the gold cards].

    I also generally run enough unnerving strikes that without the potent (long range block+draw card; steal card) benefits, as well as the typical die range, and assuming enough other people run a few block-eating cards in deck, you're looking at a card that definitely doesn't match up to an 11 damage silver attack.

    No, rather emphatically going to have to say it doesn't feel like a gold card :)

    That'd be one of the few Ouch items worth running :p
    Compares well to bejeweled, as well.

    Doesn't negate that most Disorienting Block items still would feel underwhelming/undesirable to play; though your 'become overpowered' statement would apply to this hypothetical item, in the case of both its addition and a rebalancing- though in the case of just affecting its die range, your hypothetical item still balances well.


    Terrible at math :'(

    Again, you're working around the weaknesses of the card [and any disorienting block based card]- and as I noted, there are ideal circumstances where this card would pay its way.
    Working around conditionally beneficial elements is totally valid, this IS a strategically minded game, but it doesn't necessarily mean it'sinherently balanced to the other cards :)

    Though, again, if there's enough emphasis on backstabbing cards [or as Flaxy noted, AoA builds], the card really does shine.

    I'd still always prefer to draw/steal a card with Defender's Block or Duck, though, over the sole benefit of minor repositioning. :X

    That's the main issue with DB, even with an AoA deck on a victory point based map, move 1/1 isn't always going to be useful, and certainly not in comparison to the benefits Defender's and Duck give [assuming, of course, you have the opportunity to use them instead]. Giving Disorienting an edge on die range would definitely make it feel more of a valid option, compensating for its lack of reliability in special function with added reliability in block chance.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
  15. Accent

    Accent Hydra

    In the Batford map rotation, I ran this plus Spear Of Dancing on an elf warrior, paired with a dwarf warrior and a human priest. All those Disorienting Blocks were fun for pushing my opponent off the VPs or setting up the dwarf for a backstab, but as several people have pointed out, it's tough to win a warrior-on-warrior fight if the highest damage card you have is Vicious Thrust. (Or Strong Hack, since I think I used The Strongarm in my third weapon slot, but I don't think that changes my point substantially)
     
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  16. arkfaint

    arkfaint Kobold

    @Juxtapostion : I'm quite agree with falxative, dancer's dagger is not the ideal item for me, it's more like a transitional item before finding a more suitable one. It needs two gold tokens, if it can be reduced to one silver and one gold, perhaps I will recommend to other player using it. Still, this item needs careful maneuver and is quite vulnerable to certain type of deck building.
     
  17. doog37

    doog37 Hydra

    Well now that I've seen everyone agree with the idea the DD is bad, I am going to do a 180 and see if I can make it work. I think the key is to combine it with high damage attacks and/or AoA. So my terrible idea is a DD a Sword of Lion ( 3 13point attacks) and an obliterating club (or whatever it's really called), add in 2 AoA items and the decision is do I go Elf or Dwarf?
    Elf for manuevers, maybe swap out the Lion for a Bejweled
    Dwarf for Blind Rage and make sure I use the AoA helmet with 2 movement buffs
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
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