Upcoming Balance Change (7 Jan 2014)

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Jon, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    That's complicated and would require special UI to show the limitations. Overall, it is better to simply balance in regards to MP. In SP you can customize your deck in order to specifically deal with a problematic level -- you can't really customize your deck to counter a specific build without losing to other things.
  2. cpu70

    cpu70 Kobold

    The UI has already a way to show that your party is not compliant: try to play a low level adventure with a gold token equipment.
    With my proposed method, it will be easier to add new cards/items to the SP, without affecting the MP (simply ban the card/item for use in MP).

    Addendum: I almost play SP, and right now I would prefer new content for SP than balancing MP. SP and MP should be handled differently and this is the only way I can think of how this can be achieved.
  3. Jacques

    Jacques Hydra

    Are you completely sure you can't move your own guys with WoW if they have Inmovable? Because Inmovable says that it can be moved by an enemy's card. And I'm not entirely sure, but I think I have moved my own warriors with the Inmovable trait with Telekinesis and Improved TK. The 1 point of damage has something to do with this? If you can't move them with WoW I understand why they don't use Untrained Stoutness.
    Flaxative likes this.
  4. Ok, so I just used Demonic Feedback for the first time since it was nerfed and ooooooh boy is is terrible. I used to love it in the Beta. This is all the more reason to consider my idea (inspired by Flaxative) of using a draw keyword, and have anything with a draw keyword discarded when drawn by cards like Inpiring Presence and Demonic Feedback. DF is just stupid to use now that you don't draw two with it. It used to be much better than inspiration and now it's far worse. Please don't ruin useful and fun cards just because some people try to exploit them. Just nerf the exploit. Not the whole game.
  5. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    It is more than just UI. It is needless complexity. To say "you may only have 1 WW/WWE" is complicated and unintuitive. Why not just change WW/WWE so having multiple in a deck isn't overly problematic?

    I'd definitely enjoy more SP content (I primarily play SP as well because of the current state of MP). However, I think getting the current cards in a state of balance would work better. Imagine if LoL waited to nerf things until they reached X Champions...

    Splitting SP and MP might have to happen if the designers aren't careful. It is what ultimately happened in Guild Wars and basically killed it for me. However, are you so reliant on WW/WWE in SP that removing it or changing its functionality would make SP not enjoyable? I find that hard to believe.
    Ah, yeah. It just stops enemy cards. You can still WoW / WW yourself. My apologies for the misinformation, I'll edit the post.

    Demonic Feedback was classified as a "Paper" card. It was changed to be inline with similar cards. Compare it to Inspiration (a Silver card) -- it is the same except you now take damage. Having it be "draw 2 and take damage" would push it to be equal to or better than Inspiration. I was against the change originally, but I didn't account for the card quality or rarity in my original assessment. It is relatively fine as it is now (although maybe having it self-target and only deal 3 damage would be more inline, but whatever).
  6. cpu70

    cpu70 Kobold

    It's not added complexity. We just have a game with lot of rules, and constantly changing the cards is not a better solution.
    The devs could ban WW/WWE from MP, and add a new WW/WWE that is fairer WITHOUT changing the current items, but adding new content (thus making me happy twice).
  7. Things that actually needed balance:

    Nimble Strike
    Vibrant Pain
    Trembling Staff (or every staff that isn't this should be buffed)
    Electromancer Novice
    Trait Cycling
    WoW / Imp TK
    Soothing Darkness
    Slippery Shield
    Hard to pin
    Surging block
    Dwarves/Humans/Elves to have unique roles - some semblance of parity yet variety
    Priests - mostly useless in current MP.
    Wall of stone
    Tons more

    What was 'balanced'
    Inspiring Presence


    So, to sum, because either a build was uncovered that gave a nigh-infinite amount of cards that could be drawn, or because it was theoretically possible, you in turn, nerf an entire card, and every item containing it, for the undisputed least useful multiplayer class (or at least rating capable) in the game? While not nerfing more problematic cards that have altered the meta balance, made the meta not fun, and have existed for at least half a year as issues?

    If this is the design direction this game is going to head, then, I mean this in a completely non-threatening way, I will not be continuing my club membership or participating in the multiplayer. Adding more imbalance cards to 'counter' the current imbalanced cards/items that you refuse to balance is not a good design decision. Other successful games, whether they be mmos, fps, rts, or mobas, aggressively nerf/fix imbalances, in order to keep player retention high and have a competitive multiplayer.

    I no longer feel as though I will continue to invest time or money in this game that I love above other games, if the devs are choosing a design decision of simply adding more things and hoping that it somehow balances out the mistakes, unless something changes. Either way, I'd like to continue playing, but, if I don't because the design strategy doesn't change, this is my exit feedback.
    Flaxative, Jacques and Stexe like this.
  8. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    Why is constantly balancing cards not a better solution? Look at every competitive multiplayer game. They have countless balance patches and number tweaks. I don't see how Card Hunter can survive without it honestly. Banning certain cards might be needed, but I don't see how WW/WWE improves any players experience in either MP or SP. It is simply a silly card.

    QFT. =/
    Flaxative likes this.
  9. cpu70

    cpu70 Kobold

    If you don't see it, it doesn't mean there isn't a purpose.
    For example, WW/WWE is really useful in those levels where the enemies just camp on the victory point and you need a lot of turns to reach them.
  10. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    That's like ... two levels? Those levels are designed to give a sense of urgency about needing to get somewhere quickly and stop the enemy. WW/WWE removes that and just flips the table.
  11. kardnel

    kardnel Mushroom Warrior

    I like any change that nerfs draw decks or card cycling, personally. It is clearly the most powerful thing in the game. But playing these decks is not fun and play becomes very mechanical. In general I'd try to have people use cards that force interaction with your opponent as much as possible. Those are what make a PvP game robust rather than people going in with some BS predetermined plan and not having to respond to what their opponent is doing.
  12. cpu70

    cpu70 Kobold

    There is already a mechanic to stop WWE in adventure levels, it's called Immovable.
    This game is about variety. It's more fun to beat a level in more than one way.
    Limiting the player in SP is counterintuitive.
    Sir Veza and Jacques like this.
  13. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    It isn't "counter intuitive" if it makes a better gameplay experience. I'm not sure on the designers intention on those levels, but I suspect it was to create a feeling of urgency and desperation -- not just using WW/WWE to make the entire level basically trivial. Yes, the game is about variety -- but WW/WWE reduces variety because it is so dominating. Teams have to constantly assume the enemy has it and not risk using move cards in case it puts them in a bad position. Having the "counterplay" be inaction is boring and bad design. At higher level games you'll often see top players pass back and forth as they save up move cards / abilities in case the enemy uses a WW/WWE they can move to adjust. How is it fun that you just sit there waiting? Splitting SP and MP just leads to more complexity -- it is better to simply balance for MP and keep the game a single format.
  14. cpu70

    cpu70 Kobold

    Those levels are designed to be played with WW/WWE otherwise the devs could have added Immovable to the enemy deck.
    Truth is that WW/WWE is available later in the game, so the first time you have to play in the way you explained, but later you can replay those level using a different tactic.

    I said that the devs cannot balance the MP by modifying the rule of the card without unbalancing the SP, and I proposed an easy way: just limit how many cards of a specific type can be used in a deck in MP.
    Inspiring Presence is a problem for MP? Then limit its use by limiting its quantity in MP.
    WW/WWE is too bad? Forbid it in MP, but keep it in SP.

    There are many people that don't play MP or prefer the SP. Why alienate them if you can easily make everyone happy?
    It's a win-win situation.
  15. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    Because it overly complicates the game. People have to remember "okay, so I can have only one of these, 2 of those, 3 of those, and none of those" ... that's complicated and unnecessary. The amount of disruption that WW/WWE causes in the game does not warrant keeping it in SP or in MP. It is overly random with little to no counterplay or interesting decision making. You simply pass and wait to use it. Whoopie! That is not interesting to use or to play against, it is just frustrating.

    Imagine a card that says "each character (or enemy) rolls a die... on a 1 they die." How is that fun or interesting at all? That's basically what WW/WWE does.
  16. kardnel

    kardnel Mushroom Warrior

    I agree that WW and WWE is the next big card looking for a nerf too, since people are talking about that. I have been saying that for many months though since it is a super powerful card and takes a lot of the thinking out of the game. Just sort of stand back and hit this card... majority of the time you get a big edge since your guys are together and most of the time their guys will be split up. No thinking needed. I'd have nerfed this before inspiring presence personally...
  17. Oberon

    Oberon Hydra

    I wanted to think about this for a night before posting about the new card.

    Frankly, I don’t think this new design is worthy of being included in card hunter, much less as a gold quality card.

    Inspiring presence was often unusable when you were in close with the enemy, unless you had good reason to want to give everyone cards. As such its usefulness came NOT from its healing effect (except when partnered with firestorm), but from the mass card draw when you were distant from the enemy.

    Adding more heal to the new design doesn’t really work, you’re making the part no-one wanted or needed, stronger. When are you realistically going to be in a situation where you aren’t engaged with your opponent but still need a mass heal effect? This game doesn't create situations where you can reliably disengage your entire, injured team in order to retreat and cast this. Casting it prior to injury is hardly exciting. Maybe if fireball was still in the set, but not now, and surely not at gold quality. Even in SP there are few cases where this is usable, much less a good card. It just doesn’t seem like all that good of a card design when considering gameplay. Why would anyone dedicate power tokens to the items using this card, or in what scenario do you envision this being “good”? It follows that if the card doesn’t have much use, don’t waste your limited card space on it. That just weakens your game design (after years of hard work).

    I appreciate your need to balance the cards, but I don’t think many of the changes have lived up to the original design of the game. You’re replacing well designed (though overly powerful) cards, with poorly designed, situational cards that don't encourage players to use them. The cards are poorly received, don't see much use, and due to your game design drag a bunch of formerly interesting items into boring territory. Change the cards, but at least have the courage to propose radically new designs that might actually encourage players to use them! You've already spent all this time and effort making cool cards and interesting items, don't negate all that hard work at this point.

    I think you can do better, take the time to get it right. It's not like anyone is actually abusing this right now.
  18. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    How about having a "Draw" keyword that includes the rule text "Cards with the 'Draw' keyword are immediately discarded if drawn outside the Draw Phase." (Traits would not have the "Draw" keyword.) EDIT: On second thought, let's use this to stop trait chains too.
    WhiteSorcerer likes this.
  19. PaladinGP

    PaladinGP #1 in Spring PvP Season

    That's an interesting suggestion, cpu70: having to constantly think of single player balance when balancing multiplayer will probably be a nightmare and result in lots of mission changes. Especially when you have to think of things like "Has this made the 1HP quests impossible?" too. I suggest some way is found of ringfencing changes for one so they don't affect the other.

    EDIT: Wow, OK, a whole page of posts about this before I replied!
  20. neoncat

    neoncat Feline Outline

    Well, HuggyBuns just showed me his Inspiring Presence spam deck. He wasn't doing anything more harmful than cramming his warrior's hand with officer's harness, but it could definitely be abused for firespam.

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