[Suggestion] Rogue class

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by Sir Valimont, Jan 26, 2015.

  1. Sir Valimont

    Sir Valimont Orc Soldier

    Greetings friends!

    As a lifelong card player and in fact a card game dev myself I have been meaning to play Card Hunter forever now. I actually met some of the Blue Manchu team 1.5 years ago in Seattle at PAX Prime (a big gaming convention), where I was also showing a game, and it really stood out for me. The great thing about Card Hunter is not merely how they've created a totally new game concept -- which, believe me, is in and of itself pretty awesome -- but how well they've captured that role-playing je ne sais quoi from back when we were all game nooblings 20-30 years ago. Oh how sweet it is finally to get revenge on the various Melvins of our youth.

    I thought it would be fun to engender a bit of discussion, and to contribute to this lovely community, by starting up a little suggestion thread for a brand new class for Card Hunter. Anyone should please feel welcome to contribute ideas to the thread, which I would be happy to synthesize into the second post (where the suggestion actually sits).

    Hope you all continue to enjoy this great game, and congrats to Blue Manchu for the great work. See you online!


    Sir V
  2. Sir Valimont

    Sir Valimont Orc Soldier


    If it's not obvious, this is a class not a race -- so a player would be able to choose a dwarf, elf or human rogue for a character. In general rogues would be close-in fighters who specialized in steals (sort of like monkeys), counterattacks, and general escapability of effects whether through blocks or other means. They would have slightly more HP than wizards, but less than priests and warriors, which since they are close-in fighters means they'd have to be stealthy to survive!

    Equipment slots
    Boots and racial skill are shared, as with other classes. Weapons are shared with the warrior class, but rogue only gets two of them.

    Weapon (6 slots) - shared with warriors
    Weapon (6 slots) - shared with warriors

    Gloves (3 slots) - rogue item that usually contains steal cards and other rogue-specific attacks
    Rogue Armor (3 slots) - rogue armor that offers standard armor types but also some unique rogue armors
    Boots (3 slots) - shared with all classes

    Toolkit (3 slots) - toolkits contain an array of rogue-specific skills as well as some more general skills
    Toolkit (3 slots)
    Toolkit (3 slots)

    Racial Skill (3 slots) - shared with all classes
    Stealthy Skill (3 slots) - stealthy skills contain an array of rogue-specific skills

    Sample cards
    Some examples of cards that can be found on rogue's equipment.

    [attack] Reappropriate / Steal / Filch
    Just as monkeys have these cards now, the rogue class will have access to them. These will usually be found either on Gloves or on Stealthy Skills.

    [attack] Poisoned Cut / Poison Blow Dart
    Also already existing and would become available to rogues. Usually found on toolkits.

    [trait] Acrobat
    If a card with "Halt" would be attached to you, discard it instead and draw a card. All of your movement cards get "Cantrip." Duration 2.
    (Usually found on Stealthy Skills.)

    [trait] Fencer
    Add 1 to the range of all piercing and slashing melee attacks you play. Duration 2.
    (Usually found on Stealthy Skills.)

    [trait] Escape Artist
    If a negative trait would be attached to you, discard it instead and draw a card. Duration 3.
    (Usually found on Stealthy Skills.

    [trait] Poison Master
    Poison 1. Poison damage is turned into healing for this character. Duration 3.
    (Usually found on Stealthy Skills.)

    [trait] Blackguard's Curse
    If you are killed, the attacker is dealt 7 unblockable, penetrating damage. Encumber 1. Duration 3.
    (Usually found of Stealthy Skills.)

    [armor / trait] Gambler's Aura
    [4+] = Armor 1. Keep.
    Add 1 to all of your dierolls. This card does not count against your hand limit at the end of the round.
    (Usually found on Rogue Armor.)

    [armor] Hoodoo Mail
    Armor 2. Keep.
    Any damage this armor prevents is dealt back to the attacker.
    (Usually found on Rogue Armor.)

    [armor] Brace Mail
    [3+] = Armor 3. Keep.
    This armor only blocks damage from melee attacks.
    (Usually found on Rogue Armor.)

    [block] Trickster's Block
    [3+] = Block any. If this blocks a magic or projectile attack, draw a card.
    (Usually found on Gloves or Stealthy Skills.)

    [block] Disarming Block
    [3+] = Block melee. Attacker discards his oldest card.
    (Usually found on Gloves or Stealthy Skills.)

    [move] Clear Path
    Movement 1. Free move. Clear any terrain attachment to the space where this move ends.
    (Usually found on Stealthy Skills.)

    [move] Ninja Vanish
    Movement 3. Free move. You must end this move on top of another character of size 1. That character moves to where you started this move (regardless of blocking terrain or encumbering attachments).
    (Usually found on Stealthy Skills or Toolkits.)

    [attack] Smokescreen
    Projectile piercing. Range 0 (targets self), Damage 0. Burst 1. Fill target area with Smoke Terrain (no line of sight through Smoke Terrain). Duration 1.
    (Usually found on Toolkits.)

    [attack] Traitorous Leech
    Projectile piercing. Range 4, Damage 2. Target your ally. Heal yourself for 4. Cantrip.
    (Usually found on Toolkits.)

    [attack] Dart Shower
    Projectile piercing. Range 4, Damage 2. Burst 1. Penetrating.
    (Usually found on Toolkits.)

    [attack] Shuriken Storm
    Projectile piercing. Range 4, Damage 5. Burst 1.
    (Usually found on Toolkits.)

    [attack] Lifesteal Curse
    Projectile piercing. Range 3, Damage 2. Attach to target. Whenever target heals, you heal for the same amount. Duration 2.
    (Usually found on Toolkits.)

    [attack] Needle Shot
    Projectile piercing. Range 3, Damage 1. Area beneath target becomes Spiked Terrain. (Stop. At the start of each round, occupant takes 6 piercing damage). Duration 1.
    (Usually found on Toolkits.)
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
  3. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    You should try searching the forums. This has been discussed in length before. :-P
  4. haho

    haho Orc Soldier

  5. Merdis

    Merdis Orc Soldier

    To be honest I hope that rogues won't be introduced into Card Hunter. I believe that rogues who can steal opponent's cards in MP may be frustrating and not fun to play against. Currently I can (and often do) avoid participating in Monkey Magic league because I don't like concept of stealing cards.

    Additionally I believe that current classes are both well balanced and cover 3 main archetypes of characters in fantasy gaming (magic user, warrior and supporting character, usually priest/cleric). Adding additional classes, like rogues, druids or bards, would destroy this nice simplicity. So I think that possible new class (I hope they won't be rogues) should be implemented similarly to vampires (by providing proper set of items, and not by introducing new class directly).
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
  6. Sir Valimont

    Sir Valimont Orc Soldier

    Well I think it's useful to talk about what potential parts of rogues you would dislike (stealing is a good example) ... but in general I'm sure there are some mechanics you wouldn't mind seeing introduced into the game. How about invisibility for example? Or traps (damaging terrain that your opponent can't see until it's too late)? There are tons of ways to make interesting new-class specific abilities that would only add to the strategy in an interesting way.
    Paprika2215 likes this.
  7. Merdis

    Merdis Orc Soldier

    Obviously there are some interesting mechanics which would be very interesting in my opinion, I am especially fond of traps (providing that player know trap is being set by enemy, but doesn't know where exactly). They could be easily balanced by decreasing range (to 1-2 tiles), so they won't be better than existing (spell-based) methods of creating dangerous terrain, while opening new possibilities.

    Full invisibility would be probably too effective in Card Hunter because positioning is very important and no one can react to movement which is not seen. Untargetable would be a better equivalent (character is visible, but can be affected only by cards which don't requite targeting (FS, various spells with cones, heal all, etc). Of course it won't be easy to balance out, but it is doable.

    But do we need a new class in order to introduce new interesting mechanics? I don't think so, we could introduce set of new items for existing classes instead. Then players would be able to make more interesting choices (e.g. do I want to have a typical warrior or maybe I want to surprise my enemy, sacrificing some offensive power in favor of weapons with weak direct attacks but with some "trap-making" cards).
    Flaxative likes this.
  8. Paprika2215

    Paprika2215 Mushroom Warrior

    I very much fancy the idea of traps as well, provided they are indeed limited in range (like range 1 or range 2, perhaps range 3 at most).

    Regarding cards that trigger invisibilty, though... I do think such an ability would make a good addition to rare cards, exclusively. Blue Manchu could ensure these cards won't be abused by giving these cards duration 1 -- meaning a player plays their card as usual, allowing their opponent to see it and read its text, and then the target character will be invisible until the beginning of the next round (to clarify: when both players have passed back to back). Additionally, these invisibility cards would have target rogue allies, so you can't play them on your foes and solely on rogue allies.

    As to whether or not Blue Manshu should add one or several new classes or not, I believe there are a number of ways to add new twists and gameplay elements. They could add new classes and/or races as long as the game's current balance isn't disturbed as far as I'm concerned, or they could imagine entirely new things to implement. As long as Card Hunter's perfect balance isn't turned on its rear end, so to speak, I'd think anything is possible, really.
  9. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    Making me happy today :cool:
  10. haho

    haho Orc Soldier

    Ha, interesting. I think the 3 classes are getting boring and starting to get stale. I like option and variety. It keeps things interesting and fresh.
  11. Paprika2215

    Paprika2215 Mushroom Warrior

    Well, I meant it! :D

    I agree, although I'd say this is more of an opinion-based subject. I kinda see both sides of this issue, however as I said in my previous post, BM can add as much as they want as long as they make sure the game's balance gets through unscathed. But Basically, yeah, variety is a good thing! That said, I also stand by the saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I'd say this is tougher than it appears to be at first glance...
  12. Sir Valimont

    Sir Valimont Orc Soldier

    What we're talking about is horizontal content ... it would actually be easier to balance in some respects than, for example, a new expansion of items for the existing classes. If you had an entirely new class / set of items that went with that class, so that the class worked differently from the other three, you could buff or nerf that microcosm of items and abilities as a whole if you needed to. On the other hand adding new items into the game the three existing classes can use will very easily have as effect some power creep (new items will be better than old items).

    In general horizontal expansion is a very important concept for games' longevity and maybe even moreso in card games ...
  13. We only need more cards for the current classes, not more classes at the moment.
  14. Paprika2215

    Paprika2215 Mushroom Warrior

    ...Yet again I say: it's all a matter of opinion. What do the players want, exactly? That's a tough question. Normally it is the larger group of people that get what they wished for. That's what living in a consumer-driven society entails, no?

    If BM were to ask me what I, personally, believe should be added to Card Hunter in the next update/expansion, I'd most likely have quite a bit to say about the matter. Alas, it isn't my intention to hijack this topic. ;)
  15. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    Only if you're talking about Boots and racial skills, otherwise the new items will only affect one class (two for Shields). I'm worried that adding a new class might make an entire existing class obsolete.
  16. Bard of Prey

    Bard of Prey Orc Soldier

    I actually worry more that a non-overpowered Rogue class might just not have much real value. The (highly oversimplified) current class structure is basically: warriors do melee combat, wizards do ranged combat and priests do support. Most of the ideas I've seen for Rogues would make them something of a warrior/mage hybrid... and hybrids are tricky to balance. Make them good at both melee and ranged combat, and two classes become obsolete. Make them mediocre at both and there's very little reason to use one instead of a specialist.

    I mean ok, being a hybrid works for vampire priests, but I'm starting to feel like a proper Rogue implementation should involve finding a fourth option. Stealth would be a decent example... but seems very hard to fit into the current combat system. Mobility is a racial specialty. Theft is mostly just annoying (and buggy at the moment IMO). I'm not really sure what that leaves, other than 'miscellaneous'... which just isn't a very interesting specialty.
    Mr. Magnifico likes this.
  17. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    Poison (no longer available to priests), ranged attacks that ignore Resistant Hide, Cowardly Attack, Mud Pit.

    And a hybrid warrior/mage might have been useful for your first time through the campaign.
  18. Bard of Prey

    Bard of Prey Orc Soldier

    I was thinking more about the overall purpose of the class. Sure there are a number of existing cards that could be thrown together thematically. It's just that the more I think about it, the more I wonder whether that's enough to justify adding a fourth class.
    Merdis, Sir Veza and Flaxative like this.
  19. Sir Valimont

    Sir Valimont Orc Soldier

    This is very insightful and exactly how a game designer should/would approach the problem. In fact I think it goes a bit beyond your points, Bard, in that having a hybrid class that shares equipment slots, even if perfectly balanced, upsets the balance of item distribution and utility, outside of combat concerns.

    That said I do think there are other ways to add another class like rogues, predicated in part on the condition that most of their equipment should not overlap other classes.'

    It's sometimes hard to conceive of a new dimension of play where one doesn't currently exist, but that doesn't mean it can't. Right now as you pointed out we have melee combat, ranged combat, and support. Rather than looking for another flavor of combat or support however, why not look for a completely new dimension? I think invisibility is a decent avenue, to take an example. Rogues could be invisible after each move and until they used a non-movement card or received damage. Rogues could lay traps that would be invisible to the opponent until triggered. Rogues could have cards in their hand always invisible to the opponent and resist scrying. Etc. It would require a bit of design to pull off but my point is that you can design horizontally in order to avoid unbalancing existing content.
  20. haho

    haho Orc Soldier

    poison arrow via crossbow, more use of traps and better traps, clatrops, smokebombs. I think it could be fun to play

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