[SUGGESTION] help PvP balance via Asmod's and Nimble Strike

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by ParodyKnaveBob, May 27, 2021.

  1. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Core issue: All roads in Tournamentria lead to Asmod's Telekinetic Chain. It's overpowered. The war between it and the counterplay of mobile warriors has controlled the meta for half a decade. Players and devs have targeted Telekinesis as the chief culprit,* but the fact is, Rod Of Palver Pree and Luke's Iron Hand are generally seen as inferior because the item Asmod's is Telekinesis x2, tokenless, plus the generally pleasant Stone Spikes, and because nearly every kind of wizard feels the need to pack Fly Other 2, No Damage, because warriors get stacks of attacks with built-in Fly 2 and of Move-2-When-Damaged** built into their attacks.

    *I don't mean when this bronze card got nerfed from Teleport to Fly. As a new player who only had 1 or 2 copies, pushing a dwarf warrior through a wall felt like an amazing 1-off win condition. I had no idea yet that a single well-seasoned wizard could pack 8+ for 0 tokens.

    **I don't intend this post to address Vengeance beyond this acknowledgement of its tie to the "too much control vs. too much mobility" controversy. Don't look for it. Moving on.

    The Knights have said their philosophy is "buff everything and make everything viable." I don't want to see Telekinesis nerfed. I don't even want to see Asmod's nerfed. I would like to see it changed, though. There are other Rare viable control(ish) cards which could replace one copy of Telekinesis. Or, to keep it on theme with being named the Telekinetic Chain, there are other Rare viable control(ish) cards which could replace Stone Spikes and properly add a (minortoken) requirement. Mix and match with Short Perplexing Ray or Melt Armor; manually input artificial Legendary status for Acid Blast, Hot Spot, or Minor Illusion.

    With a separation of Telekinesis focus from power token freedom, though, comes a need to look at the card's chief counterplay: Nimble Strike focus. The chief focus comes from Vibrant Pain; the chief supplement comes from Howling Pain. Changing these items sounds like a hard sell. I instead suggest re-changing the card. To wit: Nimble Strike is Silver, Step 2 Fly, Attack 4; Dancing Cut is Silver-, Step 2, Attack 4; Leap is Silver, Fly 2, set facing. Dancing Cut and Leap are fine cards; I only ever hear Leap being "bad" when compared to Nimble Strike; they do different stuff, though, and thus that's what needs to be compared. From Nimble to Dancing, we're saying Fly is worth only 1 sub-point of quality? From Nimble to Leap, we're saying Attack 4 is the same quality as set facing? From Leap to Dancing, we're saying Fly+facing is worth 1 mere sub-point more than (no Fly) Attack 4? Between Nimble and Dancing, we all know the real reason one is picked over the other: Fly. Between Nimble and Leap, I've heard people say the difference cost—Nimble's much higher value for their same cost. All these facts sound to me like Nimble Strike does more for its quality than it should. Its specialness (post 2013, c'mon people,) is Fly 2+Attack; it's hard to argue to remove that, especially with Dancing Cut. Therefore, what if its damage were decreased? By 2 might be too far, (Fly 2, Attack 2,) although it'd still be nigh-Unblockable 9 damage, according to Flaxative. By 1, to result in 3 damage, I dunno, whatcha think? (I'm also considering interactions between unbuffed Nimble, Armor, Martyr Blessing, etc. I just don't want to fill this space with "what ifs" any more than necessary.) One big result from decreasing Attack 4 would be Howl's All Out Attack's otherwise unbuffed nigh-Unblockable Attack 8 would be diminished, a small change I for one would welcome.

    Not claiming expertise. Just trying to look at the "too much control vs. too much mobility" controversy from a different angle. Regards.
    Last edited: May 27, 2021
    doublequartz likes this.
  2. doublequartz

    doublequartz Orc Soldier

    2 damage Nimble Strike would be a huge nerf. These are almost always played with some source of Frenzy, usually Frenzy 2, and 4 damage is Subtle Parry cutoff line.
    I would not nerf Vibrant Pain: it has too many Nimble Strikes and too little damage for anything but that specialized build, and wizards has relatively little trouble removing Frenzy Auras.

    Rather, I think this is the case of Howl being OP, as the heals make up for the lack of damage. Every other source of Nimble Strikes lack damage, from which I believe it was supposed to be balanced by the way of itemization.
    Removing the Heal is an obvious way to nerf it, but I would agree, pure nerfs are not fun. Adding Mandatory Action is thematic possibility I considered. My gut feeling is, though, that it's not a good idea.
    However, I have another idea that I feel might work: How about we remove the Heal, but change it so it discards the oldest card, and create 2 werewolf cards? It would make it harder to stock up on AoA or something else, but adds new potential Wind Dancer/Officer's Harness synergy, making it more of a sidegrade.

    I think addressing Howling Pain should be enough to make non-Telekinesis arcane items more viable, but in case it isn't, directly buffing these items should do the rest.
  3. Gast86

    Gast86 Orc Soldier

    Here's to shooting myself in the foot, but I was thinking why not add Trip to Werewolf form deck?
    Sir Veza likes this.
  4. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    It has already been suggested to add Combustible to Howl's pool (and remove Howl itself).

    Since I prefer nerfs over constant inflation, has anyone considered changing Vengeance to just move 1?

    I don't use Nimble Strike myself, but it feels like it was intended to be OP from the start, so fixes will be hard no matter what.
    Sir Veza and doublequartz like this.

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