PvP, not doing anything

Discussion in 'Card Hunter General Chat' started by Runan, May 19, 2013.

  1. Runan

    Runan Mushroom Warrior

    I just entered a PvP battle, and the blood pressure might have risen slightly. The other guy starts.
    And he does nothing.
    And nothing.

    and ... I get tired of watching nothing happens, I can see on the clock that I'll be stuck in this battle for another 18 minutes before he runs out of time.. so I take the easy way out and resigns.

    I wouldn't mind seeing something to prevent this way of battling.. I'm not sure what exactly, since there already is a timer. Having another timer per turn might be overdoing it..

    If I'm at work, and wanted to fight that way, I could be doing it all day, and it would kill all fun in PvP in this game.
  2. Zoorland

    Zoorland Goblin Champion

    How long are you waiting? Especially right at the start it might take a couple minutes to make decisions on how you want to play. Sometimes you also have to wait for the opponent's connection to catch up.
  3. Runan

    Runan Mushroom Warrior

    I only waited a few minutes, so I didn't wait that long.
    But I'm just worried about whether there is a possible issue here, when the game goes live.

    What I meant about "If I'm at work, ..", is that I have access to a computer 8 hours each day at work (I'm a programmer). I could easily have cardhunter running in the background, start a ranked match, and just check in after 30 minutes and see whether I won or lost. If I don't care about rating, this would be an easy way to get lots of multiplayer wins each day (if the opponents, like me, would rather resign than wait 20 minutes for a win).
    And that would be terrible for the pvp.
  4. Anesthesiac

    Anesthesiac Kobold

    In MTG online, if your opponent does not take any action for 10 minutes, they lose the match (versus waiting the entire 25-30 minutes on their clock). Is there is a reason the same thing would not work here? Maybe set the inactivity timer to something less since the total match timer is shorter. Perhaps 7 minutes?
  5. Runan

    Runan Mushroom Warrior

    That would be great
  6. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    Apparently that is deeply flawed and open to abuse.
  7. Anesthesiac

    Anesthesiac Kobold

    I'm not in the cardhunter beta yet, so this is all theoretical on my part. However, maybe you can elaborate or direct me to a thread where it has been addressed as to how it is "deeply flawed and open to abuse?" I've played mtg:eek: for the last 11 years, and never had any real complaints about that system.

    If the exploit is obvious, I'm missing it. It seems strictly better than potentially having to wait 20 minutes for your afk opponent to run down a gameclock while never taking any actions.
  8. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

  9. Anesthesiac

    Anesthesiac Kobold

    Thanks. I read the thread, and from what I garnered I guess the problem has to do with the losing party still being awarded something after a game loss. Obviously, this doesn't really apply to mtg's online structure from which I drew my parallels.

    Glad to see there are planned tools to deal with afk's and general low-life behavior, however.
  10. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    I suspect sometimes people don't notice that a game has started, so it's not always that your opponent is trying to mess with you.

    We do need a per-turn time limit though.
  11. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    If you get something for losing that's news to me.
  12. Anesthesiac

    Anesthesiac Kobold

    Still discovering the relevant mechanics, thanks for your patience.

    I was assuming we were trying to stop loot farming for consolation prizes by joining-then-timing-out. Or by joining-then-surrendering. But if that is not an issue, I assume the problem is dual-account farming or bribery, although I'm not sure how likely the latter might actually be in this environment.

    Of course, if it is only matchmade games and not custom made games that are awarding loot to a winner - then I still don't see an issue with an inaction timer resulting in a loss. I think I'll just have to try it to see how everything plays. Hopefully soon :)
  13. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Custom games don't generate prizes. Ranked games only generate prizes for the winner. Giving the loser anything creates problems because it rewards this sort of idle farming.
    Megadestructo likes this.
  14. Paleodiet

    Paleodiet Kobold

    Here is where I am going to take the unpopular position of giving something to the loser. Yep, I know, losers do not deserve anything, learn to play, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, etc.

    But here is my situation. This is a rehash of what I said in the First Impressions thread so sorry to bore folks. I have been in beta for about 3 or 4 weeks now and I have not finished PvE yet. I have played about 10-12 MP matches, and human players beat me consistently (I have won once versus a human). Now that alone is not really an issue as I might not be very good. I play humans and learn new tactics, which is exactly what should happen. However, I cannot implement those newly learned tactics because I simply do not have the card pool to do so.

    So, how can I fix this problem?

    1) Finish PvE – this would get a more
    competitive set of cards, but I now have the requirement of having to finish one part of the game to enjoy another. I am not sure that is really what I am looking for it terms of accessibility. “PvE to PvP” is an unpopular MMO trope for good reason

    2) Buy a bunch of chests – It does fix the problem, but I am not really looking for a booster based experience, I was hoping for something a little more Living Card Game in flavor

    3) Manipulate the matchmaker to find AI opponents that I can outplay and farm them – it works but feels kinda dirty, the point is to play actual humans after all

    So I feel as though that if I play it straight and take any opponent that is served up to me that I am going to lose a lot of games based on card quality. Maybe that is the design intent but that is just not a game I am going to play, much less monetarily support. Perhaps if there was something in it for the loser taking my beating would be more palatable. Perhaps some type of keys that I can collect to open a chest with an item(s) in it. They need not be the best items in the game, just enough to be competitive (I know, hard to define), with several keys required to open a single chest.

    Now, I do realize that all my problems go away if there are a large number of players at various skill levels available to play when I play. I further realize that the beta does not currently provide this. However, I have to ask how likely this outcome is going to be. Honestly I hope you have tons of people playing the game. But you may want to consider options for how to get someone to be competitive at MP without grinding PvE, spending lots of money or subverting the intent of MP by seeking AI opponents.

    I would also like to suggest a “starter deck” style approach, where you pick a starter army, as does your opponent. You play non-customizable decks and the winner gets something. At least that way it is always an even match. (Yes, I realize that creates more pressure on making the starters well balanced versus one another – Dwarves, I’m look at you)

    I realize that you would be creating an incentive to farming behavior, but perhaps it is best to punish illicit behavior with warnings / banning rather than remove incentives for people to play the game. (BTW – I have never tried to enforce the rules of an online game with logs and such, so perhaps I am being naïve.)
  15. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    There could be a consolation tracker - for people who lose 5 games in a row (and doesn't time out) or something similar?
  16. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    I have always been for a minor little pick me up for the losers personally but people shot it down with terrible "flaws".
  17. The_Mormegil

    The_Mormegil Mushroom Warrior

    Me, I think this is an expression of a deeper flaw. Namely the fact that you can't really adopt a new tactic in PvP unless you have the card pool for it, and that requires extensive farming. This ties in to the remarks on the economy of shops, but I digress. What should happen in the above situation is that you get matched with enemies that are lower and lower on the ladder, so that you find people who are on your same level. A much higher pool of opponents is needed for that to work, and that's not possible in Beta. However, I agree that you should be able to switch to a different tactic much more easily in PvP, even if you don't have all the best gear for it. For example, I should be able to buy enough equipment to get a decent terrain wizard, or a decent frost wizard, even if I don't have access to 2x Cone of Cold Arcane Items or whatever. Basic strategies should be accessible to everyone, if they want to use them.
  18. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    This is not a specific game flaw, it's an inhererent part of any ccg - you need to collect cards for varying strategies. Part of the fun according to me.
  19. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    I agree while pointing out that it some times can be a grind and its obvious that will rub some people the wrong way.
  20. The_Mormegil

    The_Mormegil Mushroom Warrior

    Actually, no, I don't think this particular way to gather cards is inherent in CCGs in any way.
    Take a look at MtG. The part where you "collect the cards needed to play a strategy" is called buying. It's their business model, and it is unappliable to any free to play computer CCG. In MtG most people (once they are out of the "let's experience this game and try out new cool cards" phase), they just buy singles and trade. That cuts down the costs on everyone's decks and allows people to try stuff out and play with different archetypes if they put enough resources in it. By trading and selling your own cards, it's pretty affordable (provided you know what you're doing). That's pretty different from having to wait until the right loot drops, or gathering money at an inane pace to buy something that might or might not be present in the shops (I'm still looking for decent staves).
    But there's more. The intended way for cards to get into the circle is for people to play a bunch of Limited, which has its own rewards and fans. That makes sure there's enough cards and money going around to make it a self-sustained mechanism. Also, playing Limited gives you a bunch of cards you can then use or trade for what you need. This is mimicked by the campaign in this game - it has the same introductory purpose. But wait, the campaign never gives you what you want. It gives you some random crap you might very well not care about. You can't buy, trade, farm or otherwise obtain pieces of equipment in any way. The only thing you can do is play with what you get. There's no empowerment, no sense of satisfaction working towards a goal, there's no way to track your progress towards that goal... It's all way too random.
    Now take a look at other computer CCGs out there. Some of them go for booster-based collection, but almost every game allows some sort of singleton buy. That allows people to gather resources for a specific deck. Sure, rare stuff may be unattainable that way, but the basics are available to everyone.

    As it is now, I am completely unable to play with frost cards on my mage as I just don't have them. There's people who just won't have Hot Spots to build a lava mage. I know of at least one person that went through half the campaign without ever getting an Elf Skill. I can't work towards a goal in any meaningful or approachable way. And it's only the tip of the iceberg. I'm not the only one experiencing this kind of problem, since there's plenty of people echoing my thoughts on this regard throughout various threads. I believe this is something that needs to be answered.

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