In which PKB requests help...

Discussion in 'Deck Building' started by ParodyKnaveBob, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    All righty, this is my first ever public "can anyone help my build" thread. It's been good for others. Maybe it'll be good for me. $F^ ,

    Sometime last year, I started making a weird party. (Go figure, eh?) I changed stuff here and there for awhile, and it did all right. After quite a hiatus, I returned this month to find my favorite fun maps. Instead of "building for the maps" like I usually do, I just went in with my party I'd been casually using off and on for awhile. Went from 1400s to 1600s! (Hovered around 1600 back and forth for a bit, but got over 1650 at one point.) ~sigh~ Fell back to 1400s tonight. So, that said, I know there are flaws, specifically in defense. Whatcha got for me, pleeeaaase? (And meanwhile, enjoy. $;^ b heheheh)

    Binwin Bronzebottom
    Level MP Dwarf Berserker

    Level MP Elf Inquisitor

    Level 1 Human Supporter

    Overall, I'm pretty happy with the dwarf. The elf could use more defense maybe? The human could use more .. less utility maybe? I've changed the human the most over time, and I've heard the big suggestion of change the char altogether (class included). I don't know. I enjoy the eclectic trio. $E^ b But, if I'm gonna maintain, and even surpass, 1600s, I guess it's time to branch out...

    Oh, and now that I've finally posted this, time to throw in a "Funniest Moments" picture I've been saving for nearly a year. $}^ }

    (edited to show token costs, which I forgot to post that time)
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  2. Sasoo8

    Sasoo8 Guild Leader

    Probably the biggest flaw in your team is that, with the exception of 3 team moves on your human warrior, your warriors act solo, with no defender blocks to support teammates who may be in danger.

    Lets try to think about this logically: to play successful CardHunter at 1600+, a deck needs to optimize few things:

    -Card Advantage- Having more cards than your opponent, especially during engagements
    -Card Quality- Having better cards than your opponent. Trait cycling can contribute to this.
    -Card Effectiveness- A pulverizing hack is useless if your dwarf warrior is sitting by the wayside and cannot hit avoidant enemies. A lunging hack is very useful if it gets your character out of lava terrain and removes an enemy block at the same time. Context matters, and we need to optimize your team so you can put yourself in the best possible situation to use your cards.

    Having said that, I think your deck is high on Card Quality, very low in Card Advantage, and Decent on Card Effectiveness. Let's delve into each in detail, but we're going to focus on the weak points of Card Advantage and Card Effectiveness:

    Card Advantage- Warriors can't do much in this department, but there are several avenues:
    -Parries and Defender blocks that replace themselves when triggered, subtracting one from your opponent's card count and having no impact on yours
    -Wind Dancer + Leadership for free draws (requiring at least 1 human warrior and wind dancer on the other warriors)
    -Delegate for humans, Elvish Insight for Elves, and Toughness for Dwarves
    -Team Movements can give you card advantage because they can allow you to use one team-movement to substitute for the actions of 2 or more general movement cards
    -Inspiring armor, which you have one of
    -Unnerving block and War-Cry can potentially give you card advantage if they drop one or more blocks

    *My advice here would be to explore Elvish Insight (Fey Insight) here, instead of focused silversmith. Knowing what your opponent is up to while removing general blocks, with a card that replaces itself, is a wonderful advantage.

    Card Quality- You've done a good job of stacking your dwarf warrior and elf warrior with high damage attacks. The human warrior has a good mixture of tech, with bashes, unnerving strikes, penetrating attacks, purges, and big attacks + a violent spin.

    *You've done a good job on card quality, so I'm not going to change your weapon choices here. However, I will suggest a few alternatives that I think are better, but in a later section.

    Card Effectiveness-
    The main thing here is that I'm afraid your Dwarf warrior and Elf Warrior are high damage, but often cannot close the distance to hit their big attacks. I know your human warrior has 3 team moves, but that pales in comparison to other 3 warrior teams. Macizo, for example, likes to stack 3 team moves PER WARRIOR or even more, and his three warrior team can hold their own at 1700+. JimmyPesto recently hit 1750 with a 3 warrior team that has at least 6 team moves. The strength of their teams is that they can easily force 3v1 situations and rotate each warrior in and out of battle.

    With the following observations, lets look into item recommendations:

    Binwin Bronzebottom

    I think Binwin's role should actually be reversed from your Elf warrior. I know Focused silversmith jives well with two Inquisition weapons, but we're going to swap out focused silversmith anyways. Also, Snitrick offers extra defense ala extra blocks and vengeance, something that your Elf sorely needs. Binwin's role should actually be closing the distance and removing blocks with nimble strikes, while funneling enemy characters into attacking your elf warrior.

    The Hackmaster----Stolen torch
    Snitrick's Last Stand----> Vibrant Pain
    The Hackmaster--->Troll's Ire. The major token could funnel into Bronzebottom cuirass (cmon, your warrior's Binwin!). If you don't like blind rage, use the Tenderizer.
    Snarlcub Hide---> Bronzebottom Cuirass. Save the Snarlcub for the elf warrior. If you went with the Tenderizer, use Galvanized Zombie plates.
    Vigilante's Hood---> Chapeau of the afflicted Artist
    Diamond Moccasins---> Hawkwind's or Marmot Boots. He needs 3 moves to close the distance. Token saved goes into armor
    Reinforced Doorf---> Raging Battler + Parrying Buckler or just Lucky Toughness
    Reckless Lycanthropy

    Conclusion: With nimble strikes, big attacks, and sunders, as well as team moves from your other warriors, Binwin's going to be a terror to deal with.

    Level MP Elf Inquisitor

    The Inquisition---> Snitrick for Safety
    Mithril Aegisblade---> Blazing shortsword for the ranged poke. Not a fan of obvious maneuver.
    The Inquisition--> Possibly stolen torch
    Haunted Mail---> Snarlcub
    Throon's Quick Laser Shield
    Chapeau Of The Afflicted Artist---> Tough leather Cap for Mighty or Sunder + AoA and Team movement
    Angry Jack's Boots---> Captain's gumshoes or Packleader's boots to help increase Card Effectiveness for your team
    Focused Silversmith---> Fey Insight because elvish insight is OP
    Novice Impaling---> Consider reckless lycanthropy

    Conclusion: We've traded a bit of damage potential for a lot more tech-- mainly additional team movements and the all-important Elvish Insight

    Level 1 Human Supporter
    He's sort of a mishmash of different functions, and that's fine. I recommend swapping out one of the lunginators and adding a bit more team support
    The Lunginator---> Strongarm. Doesn't lose you that much damage, but you can save those token to spend on other things. Besides, with elvish insight, we'll need unnerving strikes less
    Nova Axe
    The Lunginator
    Recruit's Coat
    Quinn's Buckler---> Aegis of the Defender
    Commander's Cap---> Tough leather cap for the AoA (and since we added a couple more team moves on the elf warrior)
    Captain Cedric's Boots
    Subtle Positioning
    Novice Bruising---> Savvy Attacker

    Conclusion: We've made your warrior an even better supporter of your team, and he can sneakily collect an AoA and finish off the enemy if need be

    Now, If I had things totally my way, I would go with 3 identical human warriors with wind dancer/ leadership/ tough leather caps, but that's just me (and we want to preserve the spirit of your wonderful team)!
    I hope my comments have been constructive, and good luck with your team!
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
    FDrybob, PULSEFIRE, Derek and 6 others like this.
  3. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Lol. $E^ b
    ("quote" summarized and "paraphrased" by PKB, juuuuuust in case anyone missed that joke)

    I appreciate the feedback and the time and effort clearly put into it. I'll consider. A lot of what I write below will be me working on convincing myself (since I generally don't like change anyway heh) and inviting outside convincing.

    Things you said which I knew going in:
    • Melee opponents are a lot more prevalent than expected (and more than what they were originally built for last year), thus Parry needs to feature more, yes. I've had trouble vs. Parrybots.
    • My elf has a less movement than I'd really like, even with the human (which you didn't mention Vanguard + several moves, many quite techy -- although unfortunately only one Flanking. I did log one amazing Violent Vanguard I pulled off, though, Pushing Binwin up two, F'talitie to safety and onto a VS, then Binwin again into Move range of a dying wizard, and then Moving Will into the Priest's face who'd threatened F'talitie. It was .. like .. the paradigm we all dream for, lol). Anyway, yes, the Elf lacks movement, ironically.
    • Defender's Block (and/or Cause Fumble if I changed a class) would seriously help the card (dis)advantage I keep running into in the higher ranks.
    • I hate Obvious Maneuver, too. I took it because 1. Trait, 2. I figured it's pretty obvious what a Focused Silversmith is up to anyway, lol, and 3. that item has some nice utility for tokenless; each card is good. However, I've been looking at replacing this item because 1. the Highlander approach is surprising and adaptable but hard to rely on, 2. she could use more of its utility than just one-offs, and 3. whatever little surprise adaptation she might have just gives up to Obvious Maneuver anyway.
    • The teamwork suffers in general, although they are subtly built to complement each other.
    • Card advantage in the cycling sense. Despite Binwin's powerhouse concentration, his deck is 33 cards huge, 32 counting Parry.
    Things that have worked for me so far, despite problems:
    • I decided on a dwarf because, I figured, to deliver those purple Hacks, he needed to get into position more, hence Snitrick's for Vengeance, and then Sparkling Cloth Armor to boot (pardon the pun), plus Reckless Lycanthropy for movement, not to mention the human and one-off Quick Run -- and to take the blows (with no priest in sight), a dwarf HP works all right, plus to better help prevent opp escapes, Reinforced. In short, (pardon that pun, too,) this guy's super fab at consistently taking people out when they least expect it -- and even if he basically empties his hand to do so, my team is usually prepared to move in on any new attackers (or Push him out after his dwarf HP takes some blows). As for the spirit of the party, it was pretty much literally built on the premise of consistent Pulverizings, lol. $E^ D Very, very seldom have I actually sat back and thought, "Man, I just can't get Binwin in there." It happens, yes, but he rarely disappoints. Me. Probably disappoints my opps fairly often. $;^ D Interesting that you seemed to believe my Snitrick choice was more for defense than offense, which is my intent's opposite (more offense than defense).
    • My elf's armor. I was more concerned about wizards when I made these guys-and-girl, hence the weird block decisions. To compensate, I decided to give her crazy armor. I actually feared losing my armor to Acid way too often, but that happens much less than expected. (You saw part of a 1600er match where she drew a couple armor components. I just held onto those, and I think she took 2 HP damage at one point but Howled it right off to finish the battle at perfect 25 HP!) It'd be nice to get it more consistently, but that's where talk of Parry and Defender's (not to mention traits) comes in... (On the other hand, Penetrating starts getting more popular in high ranks, too. Here's looking at you, Impaling Stab.)
    • My elf's attacks. $}^ J Werewolves, Vibrant Dwarves, Priests spending six turns in a round just to buff everybody... Attachments are the meta, lol. Focused Silversmith... Muah ha ha ha. (But yeah, that item's probably outlived its rank.)
    • The half-teamwork: They've taken down some harsh teams by using their individual, complementary skills; contrariwise, they're intended to stand alone well enough to win the clutch. (Of course, the point of this thread is that their half-teamwork suffers the higher the rank, lol.)
    I'd like to make small changes, at least at first, for now, before potentially changing nearly the whole party setup. Some of your suggestions that really hit my mark:
    • Fey Insight. Two nigh-Traits with superb utility, plus a one-off to up the (currently equipped) high Silver damage.
    • More team movement all around, hm. As stated above, whereas my dwarf generally gets in fine, my elf actually has the hardest time landing her attacks.
    • Various methods of card advantage. (I've also considered adding Investigate for better enabling swapping out targets.)
    • Heehee, originally, Binwin had Xander's Mail, but then just before I got to playing again, I saw Snarlcub Hide in Randimar's and bought my first! When I did start playing again, I literally forgot I had it for awhile, lol. Then, just kind of swapped it in, knowing if I started fiddling with the elf (since both these Heavy Armors are great!), I'd wind up changing a lot. Yeah, Snarlcub on the elf is likely better, since at least it'd free up a token elsewhere.
    Btw, Binwin started with a Vibrant Pain and dual Hackmasters. I found the damage/movement just way too inconsistent. Maybe it's just my playstyle is subpar or something, I don't know.

    All righty, I intended to just write some initial thoughts and save the draft, but I guess I'm done for now: I'll let your post stew for a bit (while I continue to rank my goofy 1400s wizards) and then crack out ye olde character sheets. I have some other ingredients that might go into this recipe, too. $F^ } $F^ }

    P.S. As much as I love Wind Dancer, (with or without the really creative Leadership combo,) I despise Punishing Bolt even more. Add one little piddly Spark Inductor for Unblockable carnage. Not fun.
  4. Testlum

    Testlum Lizardman Priest

    Sasoo's covered most of the issues and potential improvements with the decks you have here and your follow-up makes it clear that you're also aware of some of them too. That said, I'd like to offer an alternative take for you to consider here. I've tried to adhere to your theme with a damage-heavy dwarf, silver elf and supporter human with the below decks:


    I'm rather surprised you say that you have enough movement on this guy. Strong Hacks are consistent, but I feel like having the ability to regularly get in reach is equally as important too. Dodge and Nimble Strikes get you in the opponent's face while Flail and Torch provides you with the payload.


    The boon of insight's already been mentioned, card cycling and peeking is hugely useful. I agree with the assessment that Snitrick's main power lies in its defensive capabilities. Vengeance helps you flee when you're badly hurt and we all know what Parry does, both of which are great for a character with a flimsy 25HP.


    Control on warriors isn't something you see too often these days. As a rule I'm not a huge fan of Lunginator due to low damage, especially without help from a priest's frenzies. Flanking moves supplement the support arsenal by giving your Dwarf free Quick Steps alongside Vanguard as well as giving you a finisher with his range 2 hits.

    Good luck with your ladder climb!
  5. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Tested the untweaked build with a pretty new 1200er who wanted to duel (and has M:TG roots). Lost to Parrybots.

    Then, tweaked and joined ranked. No real sample size, but the matches felt decent anyway. Beat a 1600er's wizards, then a fellow 1400er's warriors + priest; considering my team passed 1650 before my mood started tanking my play and rating, though, I'm not 100% sure where to put that fellow qualifier. $F^ J

    Fey Insight let me know what those dwarf wizards were up to round 1 (and round 3). Scary stuff. Heartrippers and control. Made me pine for that double Immovable I swapped out -- even more once the Hypnotic Beacons started coming out. (Ironic this was my first opp. Not only was every Parry useless, but the situation eventually had me merely discard my Toughness I'd swapped in, too!) Nevertheless, the elf's upped movement/defense and the human's upped team support saved the day, barely, lol. Won with only the dwarf left on Batford's Sanctuary. You'd better believe I mostly just hid in the Victory Squares while they slowly whittled me down -- although my sixth and final star came from a newly Formed Werewolf delivering dual Pulverizings to a desperate wizard joining me on the VSs. $}^ D

    We'll see what happens as the days continue. Yeah, definitely liking the minor differences so far (even with that unequipped Immovable hilarity).
  6. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Today, played six, lost three, blitzed pretty badly. Unbelievable how many wizards I saw. $:^ [
  7. Sasoo8

    Sasoo8 Guild Leader

    Immovable does not counter Hypnotic beacons!

    You might consider a priest (or two!) with martyrs to counter all those wizards :D
    ParodyKnaveBob likes this.
  8. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Eh? I was pretty sure it does... Time to test! ~fires up game~
    But still, all the TK, Airs of War, etc. ... $F^ P
    (He's even stood firm vs. Violent Spin and Bashes! heehee)

    And yeah, first post says, priest is a consideration. I'd just rather not (yet). $:^ ]

    EDIT: Hypno Beacon indeed moves a char to where it wants despite char attachments stating otherwise. $:^ [ (Bug reported.)

    EDIT: Well, to combat the 1400s meta, I returned to a slightly modified version of what I first posted. (Testlum, this is what you saw a little of tonight.) Surely enough, 3 wins in 3 battles, and I'm back to 1500s. $F^ J I'll probably try to climb a bit higher before changing back to the more anti-warrior build.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  9. Derek

    Derek Orc Soldier

    I don't think it's a bug. Immovable stops movement from enemy cards, while Hypnotic Beacon technically becomes a terrain square and not a played card.

    (Though I share in your belief it should be otherwise)

    Edit: PKB taking me to school. I appreciate the detailed response. I need to not make half ass attempts at this kinda stuff :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  10. smg225

    smg225 Kobold

    Flavor-wise it makes sense, though, fwiw: telekinesis, I'm moving you. Hypnotic beacon, I'm scrambling your mind and you're moving yourself.
  11. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Thanks for the Hypnotic Beacon vs. Immovable input, both of you, although it might be better to write these thoughts in the Card Text Bug thread where it's more relevant to the devs. $:^ ]

    Only responding to correct this one particular point:
    Attachments -- whether on characters or terrain -- are still cards, discarded when originals (i.e. center square of Lava Pool), destroyed when copies (i.e. 2 squares of Wall Of Fire) or creations (i.e. center square of Meltdown), and are still ally cards or enemy cards, as demonstrated by Sparkling Cloth Armor and Vengeance allowing movement on enemy terrain-attached cards but not ally terrain-attached cards (and also as demonstrated by the Handicap vs. Purge nuances a couple years ago re: Radiation). Therefore, flavorfully and technically, Hypno Beacon is a terrain square controlled/owned by either an ally (including potentially yourself) or an enemy -- hence its ability to differentiate enemies (to re-decide movement) vs. allies (no movement changes), and the right-click details of the attached card keeping the source item name in the info bar.
  12. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Welp, I hit 1700s (twice, technically, heheh,) just before the month ended. Thanks again, folks!

    I barely modified my posted party while still in the 1400s. About midway through 1500s, I made some more drastic changes. Here's what I finally came up with, and what coasted me through 1500s and most of 1600s, breaching my all-time high of 1709. (I do wish I'd had more availability to play this past month!)

    Binwin Bronzebottom
    Level MP Dwarf Berserker

    Level MP Elf Inquisitor

    Level MP Human Leader

    I gave my one Chapeau to Binwin for a tad extra healing and self-movement, plus swapped in the new best-of-class dwarf skill (since wizards really started fading out after 1500+). He also gave his armor to F'talitie and took on Xander's in its stead.

    While still in my dip back to 1400s, I swapped F'talitie's tokenless weapon for an extra Sundering plus Dodge (that she would lose from her helmet and shield later) and no more Obvious Maneuver that I almost always hated seeing arrive despite her 8 Inq Strikes being pretty obvious (lol) -- and *still* got to keep the one-off Flimsy Block, lol. When melee became more prevalent 1500+, she swapped in the Parries (after already having lost one of her two Subtle Parries) and the Elvish Insights, plus boots and helmet for more team movement -- her helm's token came from swapping in Binwin's Snarlcub. Believe you me, if I had more than the one Reckless Lyc that I got from the CM Treasure Hunt, I'd be using them -- but at least she has a couple more Penetrating attacks to go with her traits now? Ha. ~ Last note, I literally forgot about the Blazing Shortsword suggestion. I do like the tech I kept, but yeah, the ranged poking might've been nice in some cases. ~nodnod~ Maybe next time.

    Victor saw the biggest changes. He needed Defender's Blocks, yes. Therefore, I swapped out a Lunginator for some Parries. To squeeze in that shield *plus* Delegate, which I really really wanted to do in this case 'cause, y'know, Delegate wins games, I had to remove/downgrade Nova Axe, which I really really did not want to do. (Indeed, Martyr's and Nimbus became scarier afterward. Still won matches more than before, but yeeesh.) Hard to describe my nuanced thoughts/feelings on the second Lunginator, but I swapped it out, too -- but kept the Unnervings and added some Howls. Changed his martial skill because reasons.

    I'm satisfied. $:^ ]
    Got to 1700s using only warriors, mostly of my own making. $¦^ ]

    If the month could continue, I'd finally have Victor step down for a priest. (Despite all his great team support and decent self-efficiency, he had too many weak cards to continue to really make it happen. I likewise lament mixed feelings over 4-5 cards for F'talitie -- but contrast with Binwin whom I felt had not one bad card in his deck.) Today I played the new rotation with some elf wizards-and-priest I made up on the spot; fun, won some, lost some, but still way too much melee/healing out there. (Silver Bolts at 12 damage each just can't kill a triple Talented team, even when I cut one off from the others? Ugh ugh ugh. No thank you then.) All that to say, I guess I'm ready for some priestly advice -- and/or I guess I have to get over the fact that an effective priest might just have to be a boring generic one. Evensong, Ulrich's, Novice Piety, etc., eh? $:^ ,
    Derek likes this.

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