Hints and Tactics

Discussion in 'Card Hunter General Chat' started by Jon, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. TheRev

    TheRev Orc Soldier

    Good to know 3 is the limit, I figure Holy Frenzy, Mass Frenzy, and Unholy Frenzy will give me a +6 that seems to be alright. I can switch one of those out for Unholy Well, and make that a +8.. Thats like another attack in itself, but would have to be kinda lucky, so I doubt it will be too much an issue of having too many =)

    Edit: Is this 3 limit intentional, or something they are working on?
  2. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    Intentional also mass frenzy is 3 not 2 so that would be 4+3+2=9
  3. TheRev

    TheRev Orc Soldier

    I wonder if it would be more efficient to talk about levels like this in terms of strategy..

    If you don't want to know anything about The Wizards workshop... don't look below as I don't see Spoiler tags. As it is only level 3, and most people have either done this one I figure it is prob the best one to try.

    The Wizards Workshop
      1st Round
        2x Tin Golem - Open area
            Bash Cards
            Armor -Mail (2 keep)
    2nd Round
        1x Bronze Golem - Open Area
            High Damage Bash Cards
            Armor- Thickened Mail (4 keep)
            Weakness- Clumsy
    3rd Round - Open Area
        2x Tin Golem - Open (some obsticales)
        2x Ornithopter
            Ember Spray
    4th Round - Open Area
        1x Bronze Golem
        2x Ornithopter

    For this match up I go with Armor/Oldest card discard "Cards" like Dissolve Armor or Memory Loss. I use elves so in the case of the Golems I just stay away and attack them with Distance of 2 cards till they are dead. In the case of the Ornithopter's I only kill them first in the 4th round, as they don't really do the kind of damage the Tin Golems do, but it takes too long to put off killing them with the Bronze Golem.
  4. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    I have (oh, let's see) 4 unique items with Unholy Frenzy, 15 with Righteous Frenzy, and just 1 with Mass Frenzy so far. Because I was curious, I checked for other sources of Frenzy and found 2 items with Blind Rage and 1 with Horned Plates.

    When it helps with the math, and I'm feeling particularly vindictive, I'll cast Unholy Frenzy on an enemy that can't hurt me.
    It's been set this way deliberately. There was a dev diary about it, then forum discussion. In the linked post:
    Yes, well, it "comes into play often" these days. Other than that, it's just out of need to keep things comprehensible.

    In your discussion of the Wizard's Workshop, I note you did not mention Clumsy. My basic strategy, implementable at low-levels (when I don't have QUITE as many armor-removers), is to run like crazy until I get an opening and then use penetrating attacks from behind. Obviously, I'm focusing on the Bronze Golem (which seems to have lots of Clumsy): the other enemies don't scare me very much, and I basically just use regular/penetrating attacks as needed. Also Frenzy and Heal.

    Dorque likes this.
  5. TheRev

    TheRev Orc Soldier

    To be honest I am not "Up to date" on all the new things as they are posted everywhere. Thanks for the links, I will try to keep an eye open heh.

    True, your right I didn't.. But mainly because front or back if you attack someone with armor it doesn't matter unless they have the specific armor that counts that (Which neither do, and the others don't have armor). Since Clumsy just effects facing direction I didn't see how it was really important, but will be sure to add any negative cards next go round. But the point of this was to see what more information I should add, and if this is even alright, or if people would be yelling at me to stop giving away information lol.

    And yes.... much easier then Troglodytes... if you stay away lol

    Edit: Also about the three attachments, I meant that I hardly get more then two. This is just luck based since I could have 3 on even at low levels, and I am sure that would be bad if they started bumping them off, but I hardly get that chance, so haven't worried about it that much.
  6. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    Oh, it's to avoid being hit. Like I've said before: this level sets me into the "big, slow boss battle" mode you get in lots of videogames. The big monster lumbers toward you and could kill you in one hit, but you run around behind and deal damage.
  7. TheRev

    TheRev Orc Soldier

    Wait... so your saying if they have that (Clumsy), and you come in behind them 1 square, and hit them.. If they don't have a move they can not turn around and hit you?
  8. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    That, my friend, is the glorious point of the card. Go back and re-read the text on it: "You cannot turn to face your target when attacking, and you do not turn to face attackers."

    (P.S.: As you imply, if the enemy has another move card, it can spend a turn to manually reposition. You need to be cautious.)
  9. Wozarg

    Wozarg Thaumaturge

    To be fair while it says so in the card i didn't realize it either until later just how the cant turn to face you when attacking worked until i accidentally fire coned my own party when i had a de-buff that made me unable to turn and that made the tiny light go off in my head as i said aahh right!
  10. TheRev

    TheRev Orc Soldier

    I was playing Rescue from ShieldHaven Prison again, and I tried to place what kind of gear I would need to imitate the kind of things they had. Some I have no idea as I haven't seen them yet, but a few I have.. and it was a bit disturbing. Keep in mind this is a level four mission, you don't even have all your inventory slots open, not to mention ability points.

    Vicious Thrust... The lowest gear I have that has that is a level 10 uncommon Dagger Puncturing Dagger (cost two ability points).
    Nimble Strike... Dancing cut is the closest I have seen to this.. which is better at only a level 7, but still...
    Cowardly Strike.. No idea.

    Sometimes I wonder isn't that too much for just a level four mission? Isn't there a way to replace those crazy strong cards with something more on the level of the people fighting against them? I mean don't get me wrong, I have beat the mission a while ago, and I am sure people who keep at it will too, but the highest level you can go in there is level 6.. Wouldn't it be best to at least restrict the things the enemies have to that level?

    I am not a "Balance" person, so maybe I am wrong here, but it is kinda crazy when I see things that could be at least 6 levels higher then someone doing the mission. That is a bit much isn't it? I get that your supposed to use strategy to overcome the computer, but shouldn't they at least be going against something their own level (or maybe a little a head of it)? Or if not why not just go against a level 7 dungeon right away other then messing with the lower level fours?

    Honestly I think if they just evened things out a bit, everything would work a lot better. Don't give them cards that there are no-way you could have yet, or at least if ya do, don't give them to multiple groups. But this is just IMO..

    </rant> lol :D

    Edit: I know Balance/Content is usually the last thing to be worked on. There are bugs to fix, or commands to add (etc).. But just something to think about for now I guess.
  11. Zalminen

    Zalminen Hydra

    I agree, it feels too hard for a level 4 adventure.
    I beat it with my heroes at level 5/6 and it was still anything but easy.

    The adventure is also pretty long with five fights so a full defeat near the end means having to play all those previous hard fights again.
  12. TheRev

    TheRev Orc Soldier

    First, Congrats.. That isn't an easy one to beat. Second, just wait... War monkeys are like those dogs, but worse... way worse. Scamper is so crazy... lol
  13. TheRev

    TheRev Orc Soldier

    Alright here we go try two, let me know if I missed an attack, but I let them wail on me for a bit just to make sure I got them. And yes... Still easier then the Trog's Sir Knight.. :p

    Ruby Demon Portal
    Round 1 - Open, but lots of obsticles
        Arcane Imps x2
            Devastating Spark
            Short Spark
        Fire Imps x2
            Disadvantage- Brain Burn
            Burning Fingers
            Flame Spit
            Fire Spray
    Round 2 - Open, but lots of obsticles
        Arcane Imps x3 
        Acid Imps x2
            Acid Blast
            Powerful Spark
            Dissolve Armor
    Round 3 - Open, but few obsticles
        Fire Imps x2
        Acid Imps x2
    Round 4 - Open few obsticles, Victory Location
        Arcane Imps x3
        Fire Imps x2
        Fire Sprite x1
            Disadvantage- Brain Burn
            Fire Ball
            Fire Bolt
            Flame Spit
            Fire Spray
  14. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    Going back a bit first . . .
    There are answers to this sort of question. The short answer is "no."

    The long answer is "look at any other kind of videogame and tell me what you see." There are many ways to measure "level" or "strength," and the computer is rarely on the player's level. Often, the computer is weaker: "here, have a 'slime' you can kill without risking your life." But when it comes to fights that challenge you, the computer is stronger: a boss will either do more damage or take more damage than your characters can (or both). This is to make it FAIR.

    Why? Because you, the player, have your own advantage: you are smarter. And, in this game, you are more flexible (because of deckbuilding). Therefore, yes indeed, the computer needs to load up enemies with tons of cards that do 10+ damage at once, because a smart player will minimize their use. If a player, with max damage around 3-6, used that same strategy on enemies who did 3-6 . . . the enemy literally might deal zero damage in the whole fight. (See: Weak Block, various armors.)

    Edit: Be advised that I am discussing the principle in general, not this level in specific. "Fair fights" usually require the computer to be "overpowered"; it is still possible for it to be too much.
  15. TheRev

    TheRev Orc Soldier

    Will warn ya this is a long one... heh

    If you want to talk about video games in general.. Sure I understand the computer sometimes needs an advantage, but I ask you.. Ever heard of Big Blue? Back in 1996 there was a master chess player called Garry Kasparov who was a master in chess. Without any advantage (Other then maybe good programing) the computer beat him. Now given he was one of the best (Maybe up to argument, but he was really.. really good), imagine if you or I were to try to go against it.. I am not that good in chess so would lose so fast lol. The point is, computers are not dumber then humans, given a finite options they can calculate things better, and faster then we can. But since we are able to improvise it makes it difficult for programers that don't know all the angles when it is first starting out. All and all more often then not you have to slow the computer down, or not give it specific information to weaken it so our human reaction can be fast/smart enough to deal with it.

    Everything it does it does for a reason. It has been told to do so, and will always continue to do so. If it does something stupid (Like cast Unholy Frenzy on a ally with one hit point) it is because someone has told it to. When there are choices, it has to weigh the options, and make the best decision on the information you give it.. Which are all numbers. If I am seeming to say the AI programer is no good please do not take it that way. This is a complicated process, and other then a little oops here or there (Which will prob be fixed sooner or later) the AI is actually not that bad. But to say that the computer needs lots of advantages I think kinda takes away from the skill and the time which the person put in to make it work.

    But I also wanted to talk about this..
    I think your confusing the point of making a deck against another (For example high damage cards, I know to take lots of armor, or if they have lots of armor to take penetrating attacks). This isn't the AI's fault, this is how the game is setup. You go against these different styles of decks, or creatures, and though their cards never change yours can. This is just how it is supposed to work, and how we can plan before hand to take care of each level if we need to. If they changed based on what you brought in, and then chose wrong, or played what they had wrong then that would be an AI fault. But maybe I am missing something here, so feel free to clarify =)

    Do I think if we had the exact same deck/characters as the AI would we win... I would like to say no, but I don't know. There are a few bugs still, but ignoring them for now, there are a lot of things that just are not in there like combo's or just plain uses for the cards that were not originally intended. This isn't the programers fault, for they just didn't know (It is kinda impossible to know these things), not to mention if the weights on what to do and when to do it are off by a little bit that could mess them up a lot.

    But back to the main point.. Giving the computer advantages. For now it is a necessary evil, because especially in cases like this game there are just too many choices, and you can't know all the options before hand (Hopefully whoever did the AI doesn't just stop, but improves on what is there). That being said, there are many ways of giving it an advantage, better cards, more people, better terrain to fit their skills, or heck just more cards. Each one of these is an individual advantage, by stacking them or changing the amount of any individual advantage you can change the whole level. In this case (Of the Rescue from ShieldHaven Prison) they have the people advantage, the card count advantage, and the card quality advantage.. All three of these are unique advantages that they have, and I am just saying that it is stacked up a bit too much in the computers favor.
  16. tangmcgame

    tangmcgame Mushroom Warrior

    And this is the problem. I don't mind challenges being hard, but I think they're, by-and-large, overtuned to the point where it becomes unfair for the player. The enemy wields high-damage cards that make armor almost a dead draw since they can still usually 2-shot you. Just move away? Can't, only drew the one and they've got massive card advantage so of course they can keep up. You can have a full hand of blocks and armor and still get crushed in a few hits. Routinely.

    Once you get out of the tutorial, any enemy bigger than an imp or kobold is going to slaughter you unless you get better draws than them (unlikely) and play damn near flawlessly. That's asking a lot from new players. That sort of overtuning belongs at endgame. At least, it does if you want to build a large player base.

    There are tricks, and you figure them out as you go, no argument there. But, too often, I feel like when I lose there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. Not every time, but too often.
  17. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    Hey, that was a pretty thorough essay, TheRev. I didn't have terribly much to add, but you addressed me personally, so I thought I should at least reply.

    I believe that you and I agree. You mentioned Deep Blue: when I posted initially, I thought "Ugh, do I need to mention Deep Blue? Is this ANOTHER place for the Deep Blue essay? Ehh, I'll just drop it and make my point." The short version is: for years, people have looked at science news and misapplied it. We invented the word "robot," and a million people started talking about "the day robots replace people," ignoring the depth and breadth of the gulf between an automotive manufacturing robot arm and a human-like actor. We brute-forced our way within the artificial limited space of chess (and also trivia: are you familiar with Deep Blue's victory on Jeopardy?) until a computer could often-but-not-always beat a human, and a million people started talking about "the day computers are smarter than people," again ignoring the depth and breadth of every new domain you want to program. And the fact that today's great thinkers have to devote untold hours/days/years to making said program.

    (An amusing tangent: the research lab across from mine has posted a newspaper clipping from New University that says "Scientists Developing Mental Communication." This describes their own very real non-science-fiction work. Care to guess the gulf between that headline and its practical application?)

    In your post, you presented my own argument:
    It is, in fact, kinda impossible for them to program a computer that can do everything if the programmers don't think of everything. And, for that matter, figure out how to describe "everything" mathematically to the computer (e.g., the weights you mentioned). This is why we're so impressed by "emergent properties" in modern games: interesting behavior that the programmers didn't intend but that arises naturally from the programming (and works better than the countless bugs that match the same description . . . ).

    So yeah.
    We can hope for improvement. I'm currently stuck, myself, but I'm still thinking.
    Scyrax likes this.
  18. TheRev

    TheRev Orc Soldier

    heh sorry bout that... can get a bit long winded at times lol. But I was responding mainly to your comment so... here we are :p

    I know it isn't easy, and yes I saw the PBS special on the Jeopardy thing. I remember them going over the losses, and when it did win they were supper nervous it wouldn't. I wouldn't go as far as saying them winning was a "Fluke" but it took a lot of hard work and dedication to even get that far. But then again that is not the same kind of... lets just called it a "Sealed System" that a game like this is.

    I guess the best way to put what I am trying to say simply, is.. With the limits they put on to the game it should make it "Easier" (Not easy.. hopefully get what I mean here) to know what is going to come up, how to handle it, and then not need to give the computer as much of an advantage to make it tough to beat. Giving a better impression of a "Fair" fight, then just accepting the computer as weak, and giving them massive advantages. It may take upgrading the system now and then, but I am sure they are up to it considering they have come this far, and the system they have in place isn't bad at all.

    Just curious what part are you stuck one? I have been stuck for a while and just beat one of the ones that were giving me troubles. I am not saying I can say anything new that would prob free ya from being stuck.. Mainly just curious
  19. Sir Knight

    Sir Knight Sir-ulean Dragon

    Return to the Astral Shrine. I'm at the same character level as the adventure. I already beat the other equal-level adventure, and I'm just a couple XP from leveling-up; but I don't want to "just level-up and come back" as I'd like to get the full 10 XP reward from this one. Perhaps I should stop being stubborn and just do that.

    The issue seems to be that I don't do damage quickly enough. I have anti-magic defenses (blocks and armor), terrain removers/ignorers, and my highest damage attacks plus damage boosts. I know to get the enemies to overlap each other in their chess-based blasts so they are less likely to blast me. However, I still only have six turns to move enough of them off the victory squares that their inexorable march to defeating me can be slowed--or four turns, if they kill one of me.

    I've also tried Whirlwind and Whirlwind Enemies (finally got 'em) to scramble everything and try to outrun them back to the squares. Unfortunately, it's known this can ruin the game (yup, it happened to me once in the current build).

    The best thing would be a move-the-enemy-THEN-move-yourself card so I could push them and then secure my position, either to claim a victory square (second fight) or protect myself from others on the board (first fight). Doesn't exist, so I haven't gotten past the second fight.

  20. imMara

    imMara Mushroom Warrior

    Guys, any tips on how to beat the Diamonds of the Kobolds Adventure? First state is cheese, but I get ripped on the second stage :(

    They always win by capping the victory tiles, and I just cant find a way to stop it. Tips?

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