[Feedback] MP or SP / Growing & easing in new players

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by Questor, May 31, 2014.

  1. Questor

    Questor Ogre

    The Devs should make a shortcut to Multiplayer as fast as possible or the influx of new players will be gone as fast as they appeared, or at least a early information that there will be a introduction and a free Starter Pack.
    The competition aspect is the only way to keep games alive or there would be a lot more livestreams of Starcraft singleplayer campaigns.
    Flaxative, Maniafig and Bandreus like this.
  2. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    I've been saying this for months. The multiplayer scene needs to be treated, and supported, as a real competitive game. New players should be able to dive right in, and with minimal grinding (or perhaps a token purchase) anyone should have a (maybe multiplayer-specific) collection of items that allows them to play competitively. None of this "I played Cardstock II a hundred times to get my set of Bejeweleds" crap.

    It's like, cool and all that the game is Card "Hunter" and that singleplayer becomes trivial if you have all gear, but the model really lames the competitive scene.

    (I feel very strongly about this.)
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  3. Squidy

    Squidy Hydra

    -[put a Stexe's comment about balance here]-
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  4. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Can you point me at threads where this has been discussed or start a new one? I'm always interested in ideas on how to improve this transition. It's tricky to support both healthy multiplayer and the fact that many or most players are only interested in the campaign.
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  5. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    I'll probably throw together a video or two talking about some tips and tricks for new players in the next day. One for single player and one for multiplayer.

    As for "competitive multiplayer teams with little grinding" you have the Tezkel Elves Starter Party. Would be nice to have a few more competitively viable start parties, although I'd ask that we don't have any more that include really good and highly sought after Epics. It feels like you're selling power with Epics available for purchase.

    Could definitely see a team with a few Bejeweled, Rageblood, Staff of Winter, Blood Locket, Martyr's Mail, etc. There are a lot of decently viable competitive multiplayer items that are Rare or lower that I'd love to see people get access to without having to get lucky in Randimar or grind them in Card Stock / Mauve Manticore.

    If you're interested in team submissions for new Starter Parties that would be a good forum idea. We could throw together 2 or 3 viable Starter Parties and you could remove the current ones since they are "traps" for a lot of new players.
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  6. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    (New thread because Pengw1n already said it's off-topic over there.)

    I think most of the discussions happened before you started giving renown for MP battles. And between that and the Loot Fairy, I think most players are pretty happy with things because they're no longer pressured to play the parts they don't like.

    Take a look at feedback threads with "multiplayer" in the subject:

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  7. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    Also, see what a little marketing can do for you! :-P

    Great to see all these new players! Although the tutorial is a bit overwhelming and the whole single player and multiplayer thing is really confusing. Constantly people are coming in MP lobby and asking how they are different and how the whole thing works. Just reminds me how difficult it was to get into the game and how many silly mistakes I made when I first started... I see it happening very frequently.
  8. Pengw1n

    Pengw1n Moderately Informed Staff Member

    I feel this topic deserves it's own thread, especially after Jon asked specifically for feedback on the issue - so I moved the relevant posts from the Yogscast thread here.

    Edit: Also added Kalins thread to the mix.
    Last edited: May 31, 2014
    Stexe likes this.
  9. Jon

    Jon Blue Manchu Staff Member

    Yeah, that would be great. We started putting some together but haven't finished yet.
  10. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    I'll make two builds or so that use Rare and lower (maybe one Epic that isn't super OP like Lochaber) and post them here for others to critique. I'll try to make them gimmicky like the all Elves team so they have some synergy.

    EDIT: Going to try to make each item unique (no duplicates) and all Rare or lower save for 1 Epic item that isn't a "must have" in Multiplayer games but is still decent for the team composition.
    Last edited: May 31, 2014
  11. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    Or what about just updating the older builds with actually good items but keeping the same theme? Or a bit of both?
  12. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    All Out Attack!
    Level 1 Human Warrior

    Step Back Up
    Level 1 Dwarf Warrior

    Level 1 Human Priest

    That's a sample build I came up with quickly. It uses Rare and lower but would definitely be competitively viable. The gimmick behind it is that the Dwarf Warrior and Human Cleric rush in and deal damage / set up while the Human Warrior hits from behind with some Impaling attacks while waiting to get a big attack (like Obliterating Bludgeon) with an All Out Attack. It is a fun build all about big damage and has some tricky aspects in it as well (Quick Run + All Out Attack + Obliterating Bludgeon).

    Again, I'd like to emphasize the need of not including Epic or Legendary items unless absolutely necessary for the build (I'm trying to work on a Vampire build that includes 1 or 2 Epics at most -- although I'm sure @Flaxative could do a better job with it). Having Epics in Starter Parties really skews the game -- right after you released the Tezkel Elves starter pack I saw more Whiteglow Flails than ever; basically one on every single Priest I've since encountered. It would be much more beneficial to not include Epics that you can buy. That way you don't alienate players into thinking the game is "pay to win" but can still provide interesting and competitive viable starter parties.

    Here is the list of all Rare and lower builds from the speed tournament competition I ran a while ago -- it might help you come up with ideas. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1W4xVvUzbmIbWx67N5MJ_ViV4tjNUFKvpDR64chHniV0/edit#gid=0
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  13. Neofalcon

    Neofalcon Goblin Champion

    Something that would really even out MP and help out new players is a crafting system, allowing you to work towards specific items that you want.

    You don't need hundreds of different items to be competitive in MP, you just need one set that works in the current meta. Adding a system that lets people go after specific items would reduce the amount of time new players need to play before they become competitive.

    Perhaps additionally, crafting items would drop more frequently in MP than campaign, so playing MP would be a more direct path to specific items, whereas campaign would yield more items overall.
  14. Phaselock

    Phaselock Bugblatter

    Erm, can we also have the proposed pizza cost of starter pack suggestions as well ? Many builds have been put forth but none has a price tag. And if the devs put out high tier NS/WW/3DC/FS packs for X pizza, how would the current populace feel ?
  15. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    That would be a TON of work to create and balance. The problem with being able to go towards a specific item is that everyone would go for the same set of items. Plus, that kind of removes the aspect of "hunting" cards.

    Only if they didn't include Epics and/or Legendaries. The worst thing they've done was introduce the Tezkel Elves Starter Party... every single priest has a Whiteglow because of it. The neat thing about limiting Epics and Legendaries is that it encourages people to play and "look for better gear" and also creates a diverse variety of builds. Once people get access to the best Epics and Legendaries everything becomes more and more homogeneous like it currently is at the highest level of the ladder. That and people stop hunting for cards or buying chests or playing since they've gotten the best of the best.
  16. Neofalcon

    Neofalcon Goblin Champion

    I couldn't disagree more. Ideally, if everyone had access to every item in the game, we would see a variety of builds being competitive. If this is not the case, then that's a balance issue. Simply withholding items from players artificially creates variety (by denying players access to builds, like Vibrant Pain based parties), without addressing potential underlying balance issues.

    If every player having Whiteglow Flail means every player feels like they have to use whiteglow flail, the problem is the item itself, not that everyone now has access to it.
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  17. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    Sorry Jon, I haven't talked about it that much on the forums I guess, mostly in lobby chat.
    And when I met up with @Farbs at GDC, it was a pretty big topic of conversation—he seemed interested in making Card Hunter PvP more competitive/sport-like. I assumed he would bring some of what I discussed back to you, but I'm sure you guys were pretty swamped in expansion/league stuff at the time.

    Let me see if I can find the one forum thread I did post about this...
    Here we go: http://forums.cardhunter.com/thread...ers-to-participate-competitively-in-pvp.5229/

    Basic idea: a small price tag of $5 or $10 wouldn't eliminate the allure of grinding but would remove the necessity of it for players just interested in getting into PvP. Access to all starters and all commons would let people try a variety of builds and really sink their claws in. I also don't think it would trivialize the campaign too much.

    (That thread also has some good points from other users, like Sir Veza... multiplayer tavern please!)
    neoncat likes this.
  18. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    It is a balance issue -- I've said that ad nauseam so I don't need to repeat it here.

    The point of Card Hunter is about hunting cards. With access to the best items in the game through paying, what is there to do in the game? Psychologically people continue to play to get good loot and improve their build as well as their gameplay. Without that or the introduction of constantly new elements (like new Champions and old Champion reworks on a monthly basis for League of Legends) people get bored and stop playing.

    Imagine if Magic: The Gathering had no rarity and you could buy all the best cards in a single pack. The game would fundamentally change. They've done things like that with "Living Card Games" (LCG) but they come out with new content on a monthly basis to keep it fresh.

    Another thing is about user retention. You want to keep players playing. The longer someone plays the more likely they are to spend money on a free-to-play title. There is a fine line between giving players access to things to make them competitively viable, and another to give them the best stuff to have a completely even playing field.

    I'd wager the best of these two spectra is somewhere in between where people have access to a variety of interesting, competitively viable builds that don't contain the best of the best. That way they can still hunt for slight upgrades (like Rageblood into Lochbaer into Vibrant Pain), but still have items that you see people use competitively (Rageblood).
  19. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    Like leagues and map rotations? :)
  20. Stexe

    Stexe #2 in Spring PvP Season

    Map rotations aren't enough to keep the game interesting for the majority of players. Non-preconstructed leagues do add a little bit, but without new functionality, they've been boiling down to "who can make a super specific build to counter limited movement" instead of actually giving meaningful item restrictions an importance.

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