An Emphatic Time-Sensitive Suggestion (and Some Supporting Details)

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by battlezoby, Oct 16, 2021.

  1. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    An Emphatic Time-Sensitive Suggestion (and Some Supporting Details)

    Ok, two comments before the idea:

    1) It's unfortunately hard for me to write concisely about things that I really care about. (It's a real-life handicap I have, and wish I didn't.) So sorry about any excess verbiage.

    2) Although I've previously expressed concern about the changes to CH which was my "favorite 'stable' online game", I happily admit, that so far, I think Knights have enhanced and expanded PvE while keeping things both well-balanced and interesting via the new EPC modules.

    Eastpass even subtly and PASSIVELY introducing new attachment cards to the PvP environment without creating new gear was a fun and clever twist to make even Ranked more interesting without upsetting even one PvP player that I can think of! :)

    My Wishful Suggestion

    I really want to suggest (for multiple expounded-upon reasons) that a second Loot Fairy and maybe Bandit(s), (hereafter "Loot Guys" collectively) be added (or at least announced as "Coming Soon") at the same time as the new Castle Mitternacht is released!

    I consider this a time-critical matter for the benefit of both Knights, player interest, and the game itself, and some of my reasoning and perceptions are listed below. (Sorry for not posting sooner.)

    Historic Background

    After I first noticed Knights asking for advice about possible improvements, I suggested adding extra Loot Guys, and if I remember correctly, Knights replied saying it sounded like a good idea. Before Knights, Blue Manchu had become too busy to implement improvements.

    The original "Loot Guys" were one of many great new features long ago introduced by Blue Manchu after Cardhunter was already a "complete" game. Not only was the Loot Fairy a great business-oriented way to get players to think about CH every day, by checking the LF Wiki, and later the Tracker, going on hunts, and LFG-LF'ing, I strongly suspect they helped nurture the friendly, cooperative and enjoyable aspects of the in-game community.

    I've been told the Loot Bandit has been a cool motivator for some people to (buy and) run a lot of maps daily, but I suspect that was "before my time".

    Unfortunately, over time, the Loot Fairy and Bandit have been repeatedly diluted/nerfed; mostly and originally by Blue Manchu with every new adventure they could visit. It became harder and harder for searchers to locate them; there's still only two Guys, but the number of adventures to search while looking for them keeps going up and up and up.

    But nonetheless, the LF remained a rather reliable staple as lots of "LF not found at <map>" comments appeared in World quickly after each of its moves.

    I don't know why Jon didn't add at least the first Mitternacht
    cave to the Loot Guys' route; maybe it seemed too hard, or maybe
    it just seemed like one-map-too-many. (I consider it easier than
    Plume Mountain and about the same as the Trifle.)​

    Then the number of adventures to search didn't change for many years. Perhaps that helped set and stabilize our LF habits and expectations.
    (I think most people mostly just forgot about the Loot Bandit.)

    The Eastpass Conspiracy

    More recently, when the new Eastpass Conspiracy modules were added by Knights, they were the first new non-Mauve-Manticore modules released in many years, so I'm sure they were surrounded by a moderate amount of intrigue, and:

    a: they were free,
    b: they were spread across many levels starting low at Level 9
    so there was one for roughly whatever level most players
    might have wanted, and furthermore,
    c: there were teaser figurines upfront and more figurines for
    BUT unfortunately, it was also the first new dilution/nerf of the Loot Guys in MANY YEARS, although I think those positives ("a:", "b:", & "c:" above) helped offset/mitigate negative perceptions of the nerf. The old Loot Fairy Tracker wasn't updated, so Cynthih and I personally volunteered to create and host the new tracker, and are continuing to improve it, especially as the Loot Guys now expand toward the Castle-M. (We're hoping to expand patrol-access soon.)

    But unfortunately, (as Eastpass may have lost its novelty,) my repeated observation has been that the new dilution/nerf of the LF was perhaps just big enough that the enthusiasm-for and time-to-locate the LF have become noticeably worse. It seems like the checking of late-adventures is more often frequently delayed and such delays longer than before. And, very surprisingly, it seems like hours passing before the first "Confirmed Absent" is marked has become a not-so-unusual sight for the first time! (Yesterday was a lucky Loot day, but we've had a lot of bad ones.)

    Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the LF is currently
    broken; but, I'm concerned that it's been diminished/diluted and
    could almost certainly benefit from some improvement, especially
    before it is diluted further
    and also gets some extra
    negative spin by hiding in more high-level and pay-to-play adventures
    than ever before.​


    So, adding the Paid Castle Mitternacht modules to the Loot Guys' route(s) will further dilute/nerf them again. I suspect wisely timing the LF's new ventures into Castle-M to coincide with the Halloween event should help with "morale" TEMPORARILY. But, I'm very concerned that it will not only dilute and nerf the Loot Guys, but also send them into more PAID MODULES, and more high-levels, which are usually the last searched and are often effectively a problem for people who don't have the appropriate characters leveled up high enough. (And for those of us ready to do them, it's often hard to find a LFG partner.)

    I fear that CH may quietly be perceived by some, perhaps subliminally, as becoming more of a "PAY-TO-WIN" game, than it was before the Castle-M update!

    I understand Knights likely want to increase revenue so I have no objection to their promotion of the (non-PvP) paid content...
    Actually, I personally want them to increase revenue. It certainly seems like a good way to help keep the game alive.

    So I want the Castle-M expansion to be received
    by new buyers as positively as reasonably possible.

    But, unfortunately, if LF-dilution isn't taken seriously, and mitigated, I expect the dilution will keep getting worse and worse over time.

    Dilution means the LF might not be found some days, and also hurts the hope of finding one's Loot Bandit before the reset...

    People with a habit of hunting and LFG-LF'ing frequently might stop.

    I'm only trying to be helpful, so I hope Knights recognize potential user-perception of a "pay-to-win" trend emerging, and/or diminishing LF (and LB) interest. (Obviously the mere perception is a bad thing unto itself.)

    So, I really think now is the best time for the Loot-Fairy Buff that Knights said they'd consider; so I'm writing this to encourage its timely release (or announcing its upcoming release) to coincide with the Castle Changes (though I know I shouldn't get my hopes up so high.)

    An LF-buff mixed with Knight's announced plans might send the message of "Yea, we improved the game! The Castle is better balanced, the Loot Guys now go there, and the Loot Guys are now even easier to track down than they were yesterday!" That, IMO, is a win-win all around! (Including the part where Knights might sell more copies of the Castle maps and spur more general interest in the mist of a positive community vibe). [A long-term vibe, rather than just the temporary upswing from the restoration of the Halloween tradition.]

    I've been playing CH for many years and I really want to do whatever I can to increase the chances that it'll remain a stable and viable game and community for many years to come.

    So, in summary,

    So, in summary, I think creating (or more realistically "just announcing") some new Loot Guys in time to coincide with the Castle Re-Release would be a great idea.

    I've actually given this game a lot more thought and mental-analysis than I've even hinted at here.

    Best wishes from Battlezoby (as Cynthih tries to proofread this.) :)

    [ ] PvE Balance: Check!

    [ ] Ranked Balance: Check!

    [ ] Improved Co-op play: Fingers Crossed!

    P.S. Cynthih and I have appreciated the positive feedback from the community that we received regarding the new tracker, and even though it's not a great time for us (personally) to prioritize its improvement right now, we're doing so anyways as part of an effort to help both the game, the community, and the company "presiding over them," during the transition to the new CH era.
  2. fatcat__25

    fatcat__25 Orc Soldier

    I totally agree about this, and I think quite a few people have asked that something be done to counteract the LF dilution, in particular. I hope the suggestions are at least taken into consideration.
  3. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    We've previously said we're looking at our options for adjusting CH's economy to be more player-friendly; any adjustments to "loot guys" would be part of this. Don't hold your breath for details announced on Monday though. Appreciate your care for the game!
  4. Blizzrd33

    Blizzrd33 Orc Soldier

    All of this is 100% the case in my opinion. Well said.
  5. Maniafig

    Maniafig Thaumaturge

    My preferred fix to the Loot Fairy will always be to scrap the hunt aspect and just show the player where it currently is. Have the UI for the dungeon the LF is in have some sparkles or other indicator to show the LF is currently there, presto, problem solved. CH is the only game I can think of where people have actively to go through hoops, ask around in the world chat or go to external sites to find their "daily log-on bonus", rather than the game just telling them what to do.
  6. Gast86

    Gast86 Ogre

    The hoops are what make it fun though.
  7. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    My suggestion for a better LF:
    (This will require a significant amount of coding, so not likely anytime soon.)

    When the LF moves, announce it in world chat. The announcement can even come from LF.

    When the first player finds the LF, give them (and co-op partners) 1 slice of pizza. Then announce the location in world chat and mark it on the map.

    Finding the LF is work, and this will give people a reason to do that work, especially those days when the LF is in a tough module.
    Pawndawan, Gast86, Sir Veza and 2 others like this.
  8. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    A good suggestion, and I've seen similar ideas circulated recently. But I think those ideas reduce cooperation, spirit of cooperation, and community-building effects the LF hunt creates.

    Please keep in mind that those changes would, I think:

    A) Not "Give Credit to" people who hunt the LF but don't find it. Some people feel good about themselves, and might even gain respect from others, when they're seen reporting where the LF isn't.

    B) Preserve the awareness of the hunt that all the "LF not <map>" messages that the hunter creates. Those idea would create single (abiet perhaps repeated) message about where it is, but not raise people's curiousity about the hunt or the hunters, and it would "expose" the spirit of cooperation exhibited by the hunters as prominently.

    C) It would, at least occasionally, discourage people from working together to hunt it, because it would sometimes, perhaps often, be found by people who might not even be trying to find it, and might not even be aware (or care about) hunting it for the sake of the community.

    Although I obviously support the idea of a tracker, I wouldn't ever suggest that people be discouraged from reporting their findings (including "not at " findings) in World if they wanted to. "HavingABadDay says: The game automatically reports the LF's location, stop that stupid 'LF not at Highway Robbery' crap you ******!'

    I haven't hunted it all-that-often (especially if you divide the times I have by the 5 years I've been playing) but when I have, it's need, on average, extremely conducive to me and the other hunter to becoming good friends for both discussion of the game, personal stuff like what country they live in, and everything else we might want to discuss.

    Although my Private Messages are, by definition, Private, there's been thousand and thousands of lines, perhaps paragraphs of them, over the years. I've gotten more of a perspective of some countries I'd othewise "barely notice" due to Cardhunter. (Turkey and Serbia for example.)

    It would really nice Knights would add a few lines to their API to make World Chat, or at least the Co-op chat visible to LF trackers; both mine ( ) and potentially others. And would be a simpler and more useful thing, it would have other uses as well, and be very unlikely to produce noticable bugs since it wouldn't be visible to any in-game interactions.

    More about that below...
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
    Pawndawan likes this.
  9. battlezoby

    battlezoby Ogre

    Regarding the API and Chat
    I would really like to make my tracker ( ) be able to read chat lines from World and/or Co-op so people could say "LF not at <approximate-name-of-map-spelled-close-enough-for-my-tracker-to-guess-it>".

    Knights would only need to add a few lines to their API to make World Chat, or at least the Co-op chat visible, via the existing Cardhunter API, so community-based software, including my LF trackers ( ) and potentially others.

    That way the tracker could both know the user is a real Cardhunter player, and could also give credit to the user, by in-game-name, automatically, when people hover over the tracker page. (Obviously the option to request anonymity could be added as well.)

    It would also remove the need for any other form of "Authentication" for the tracker while being better than the current method(s). [At most, it might need to some limit people whose meta profile are "unimpressive", but there's a good chance that would never be needed.]

    I thought about letting people type their CH username in the tracker, but that's awkward for the users, and, unlike reading the chat (if the username is seperated by a marked or field to prevent forgery) would prevent people forging other people's usernames. [Sore PvP losers come to mind as potential abusers if they could impersonate others.]

    The suggested API would also be a far cleaner was to associate your real in-game name with these Forums and do the Guild management than the current system of finding special "fake" maps, editting them, and honestly, doing so in a way that is so confusing I gave up trying to that sort of thing shortly after starting.

    It would be very unlikely to produce noticable bugs and other adverse effects since it wouldn't be visible to any in-game interactions. (Only programs that access the API would see it.)

    More information than that has been transmitted from, and, into the game by very-hard-write PC-based program(s). That's not user friendly, and to the best of my knowledge, requires a "user PC" rather than a "up 24/7 server", but I'm mentioning it here to point out that, to the best of knowledge, nothing bad has ever come of exposing the game's info to the world, despite nothing being done to prevent it.

    Disclaimer: I might delete this so I can copy it somewhere more appropriate later.
    Disclaimer: Although I've thought a lot about much of this, it's been written more causually (and been less proofread) than more offical "Suggestions".
    fatcat__25 likes this.
  10. Kalin

    Kalin Begat G'zok

    I agree, but the "not at" comments will still be necessary since many hunters don't have permission to update the trackers. I don't even know how your tracker is updated, but I guess most of those comments are on the Discord?
    Guess I should finish reading the forums before posting.

    Already happens, and sometimes they announce it, sometimes they don't. I haven't been paying much attention to the hunt lately, but it used to be common for the tracker to be marked without anyone knowing who found it.

    Right now, people who only play PvE may not even know it exists because they don't look at chat, and people who only play PvP don't care. So we have all the discussion happening in the wrong place.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
    Sir Veza likes this.
  11. Blizzrd33

    Blizzrd33 Orc Soldier

    All of this discussion would of course be assisted if TKoU were able to announce whether they have plans to revamp Loot Fairy / Hidden Bandit occurrence. Given the ever growing list of maps that need to be searched daily.
    fatcat__25, Flaxative and Sir Veza like this.
  12. Gast86

    Gast86 Ogre

    Rumor has it there will be a Loot Hoarder. Giving you 50 identical tokenless common items.
    fatcat__25 and Sir Veza like this.
  13. The addition of 10 modules to the Loot Fairy's list of locations is really a strain on the small number of players who still hunt for LF. In more robust times we had many hunters, but these days I see 1-2 hunting usually. Many many players trickled away during BM's years of neglect of game. Does Knights of Unity have any plans to beef up the player-base? Recall lost players somehow?

    Drawing more players to the game is a long term answer to the current problem anyway. I do think a short easy solution to encourage more to hunt from the current pool of players is to sweeten the pot. I agree with battlezoby's idea of additional fairies/bandits/etc. but I wanted to suggest:

    Can KoU implement a change whereby the first account(s) to find the LF each day trigger a bonus above and beyond that of normal LF or even co-op LF? {Perhaps a guaranteed legendary slot or more epic slots}. Make the prize bigger for whoever FINDS the loot fairy and you will motivate the hunt. Right now most players wait for LF to be found and then cash in for quick loot when its location is broadcast to the world.
  14. Blizzrd33

    Blizzrd33 Orc Soldier

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