Altruism - alternative card functions

Discussion in 'Card Hunter General Chat' started by Ryahes, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. Ryahes

    Ryahes Kobold

    I've been thinking a lot about Altruism and, despite how it may not be balanced considering it can be either useless or nearly as broken as the old Talented Healer, its function just doesn't match the name of the card. Altruism as I understand it means sacrificing something in order to help someone else, so along those lines I've tried to think of some alternate powers for the card that would hopefully be more interesting and support the Priest class thematically.

    1. Each time you cast a Holy spell targeting an ally other than yourself, remove one enemy attachment. If an attachment is removed, you take 2 Psychic damage.

    2. Each time you cast a Holy spell targeting an ally other than yourself, remove one enemy attachment and attach it to yourself instead.

    3. Each time you cast a Holy spell targeting an ally other than yourself, Heal 2 to that ally and take 2 Psychic damage.

    I don't know that these are the best suggestions, but I think they're really interesting possibilities and as BM still has Altruism on their watchlist I think it may merit discussion. Personally, I don't think a random card draw is really the best match for Priests nor is a totally luck based ability that fun. So, I'd really like to explore the idea of alternate functions for the card that involve helping others through sacrifice while expanding tactical choices.
    Mutak and nickv2002 like this.
  2. nickv2002

    nickv2002 Mushroom Warrior

    To debate you on theme of Altruism:
    Selfless and disinterested aren't necessarily the same as self-sacrifice. I think the selfless part of the card comes from the fact that it only triggers when healing others.

    But I like your ideas for other class buffs. Maybe good ideas for a whole new card for the first expansion!
    Ryahes likes this.
  3. dmar314

    dmar314 Goblin Champion

    I like the line of thinking of this thread. I definitely think that instead of targeting an ally for your suggestions it should be "an ally other than yourself". My wishlist for altruism is 1. No card drawing involved and 2. No dice roll involved, since I don't believe either of those belong in positive traits. My impression of what altruism actually means is just selflessness, not necessarily disinterested and not necessarily self-sacrificial (although those are definitely possible). I think suggestions 1 and 3 conflict with holy presence and healing spirit respectively (as in, those traits are already supposed to remove attachments and boost heals), but I think suggestion 2 is very interesting. I like the mechanic that if you remove too many attachments then altruism itself will be replaced, but I'm not sure if it really fits the flavor of the card. I know the spirit of altruism ought to be "play a holy card targeting someone else and something good happens," but I haven't heard any satisfying suggestions yet as to what that good thing should be (ideally something less broken than "draw a card" and less boring than "heal someone").
  4. Mutak

    Mutak Goblin Champion

    Combine the two. Remove an attachment if there is one, heal two points if not. Take 2 psychic damage either way.

    Seems a little OP - maybe on a 3+ roll? I know people hate rolls, but it's a good way to balance and if more roll-affecting abilities like Bad Luck are introduced it could become an interesting tactical choice.
  5. Assussanni

    Assussanni Ogre

    *Sheepishly raises hand* I... I don't hate rolls :oops:
  6. progammer

    progammer Ogre

    I maybe in the minority here but I feels like Altruism fits its current theme perfectly. If you help out your ally by whatever means, you have a chance to draw a card. It's not guaranteed, it is a dice roll. That means you don't help them because there is a reward promised for you (that would not be altruistic). You help them and that's it. Getting a card draw is just something bonus that should not be factored in the original decision. If it is another holy card, that means you have even more opportunity to help out your friends.

    To sum up, you are not rewarded for being altruistic, you just have a chance to be even more altruistic. The perception should change from "this stupid dice never roll for me" to "i get nothing in return, i'm truly altruistic". Changing the mechanics in anway that guarantee an effect (no dice roll) break this altruism theme.
  7. xienwolf

    xienwolf Goblin Champion

    I know that having a +2 to heals was discussed, and seemed to come to consensus that it would be too powerful and somewhat bland.

    What about +2 to range on heals?

    Or maybe remove Line of Sight requirement from healing abilities.

    They don't really fit the card title of Altruism. But they would make fantastic traits for healers to use. Nothing says we have to fix what is there by subtle changes. Complete replacement is viable as well.
  8. dmar314

    dmar314 Goblin Champion

    I don't recall anybody saying +2 to heals was necessarily too powerful, but it is pretty bland (although one could say that all warrior traits except blind rage are bland). But those suggestions sound like they'd work better for talented healer or healing spirit rather than altruism. No line of sight for holy spells targeting other allies? Could be interesting, but not very satisfying at least to me.
  9. Ryahes

    Ryahes Kobold

    I appreciate your comments, I agree after looking it up that Altruism may not always mean self sacrifice, but in most cases it's the secondary definition.

    From Merriam -
    2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

    So yes it's not the primary definition, however personally I think that to be truly altruistic you wouldn't be concerned for your own welfare when helping others. Therefore if you are willing to give something of yourself to help others it is more clearly, or apparently, altruistic than if you just help them at no apparent cost. In real life this would probably be through your time, or money etc. but that's how I correlate some level of self sacrifice to altruism. But thank you for pointing out that my perception is not necessarily the popular definition, knowledge is power. (majortoken)
    nickv2002 likes this.
  10. Ryahes

    Ryahes Kobold

    You're right, that's what I meant to say. I'll fix it, thank you.
  11. DevourKing

    DevourKing Kobold

    So in this would you think that passing over a random card may be more "dictionaryily" correct? What else would be really self-sacrificial, considering that 'I'm a priest, I can just heal off 2 damage'?
  12. Keyser

    Keyser Goblin Champion

    Am I the only one who thinks altruism should also trigger when helping an opponent? That would seem more "purely" altruistic.

  13. Heh you could make it so that it only triggers when targeting an opponent and remove the dice roll. Would make it a very fun card.
  14. DevourKing

    DevourKing Kobold

    Blew my mind! That could even work well with combining Touch Of Death and inspires, not that, it doesn't already.
  15. Ryahes

    Ryahes Kobold

    That's definitely a cool idea. I think it may work, but I would also be concerned about its power as a well positioned Inspiring Presence could now generate two cards for the caster. Also, if an enemy has full health and you don't need heals you can now pretty much always just throw heals on them to cycle them out of your hand generating huge cycling power.

    Area heals would become even better at drawing out blocks as you can essentially cast them for free, although running around casting heals on errybody would seem pretty altruistic. XD

    There may be other side effects as well - I do like the idea I just think those of us who are good at breaking things should try to mentally break this one before we fall in love with it.
  16. Keyser

    Keyser Goblin Champion

    A couple possible modifications that would address your concerns:
    1) Don't draw a card if opponent blocks.
    2) To avoid the inspiring presence problem, have altruism trigger if you *only* target opponents.

  17. Inspiring presence isn't a problem, since it does not get you additional card advantage (enemy: 1 your team: 4 is the same as enemy: 0 your team: 3). Using heals to cycle/draw out blocks would just make using the card worthwile and fun to use. And compared to the current functionality it would be drastically weaker. The combo with Bungled Heal would be great though.
  18. Keyser

    Keyser Goblin Champion

    If something like this happens to altruism, I propose a new trait. Holy Roller: after playing a holy card, draw a card on a roll of 6.
  19. Ryahes

    Ryahes Kobold

    Good point about Inspiring Presence, but what you said about Bungled Heal raises another issue. How would this interact with the upcoming Talented Healer? Consider, by casting multi target spells with both Talented Healer and Altruism the priest could get some very lengthy draw combos, with the added bonus of cantrip.

    A player might be able to pack several impenetrable nimbus along with some light heals, and if any of their characters are in trouble you could potentially chain cast multi heals to restore your own character to full health(and theirs, probably) with no chance for enemy response, and follow up with nimbus on your ally, etc... I feel this could lead to some dominant turtling tactics, etc. What do you think?
  20. dmar314

    dmar314 Goblin Champion

    The thing about draw chains is that cantrip doesn't matter very much with them. That is because if you are drawing a lot, your opponent usually ends up passing anyway. Also, if your character is in trouble you usually want to cast nimbus first, which gives you as much time as you want to get off your healing chain. I'm not sure how much bungled heal, twin heals, healing rays, and healing pulse one could reasonably pack in there to get long chains from the "keyser altruism". Disclaimer: I don't actually like the keyser altruism idea... I want good things to happen when you cast holy spells on your allies, just not card draw.

    Here's my own wacky altruism idea: Whenever you cast a holy spell that targets another character, gain a "good karma" attachment that increases all dice rolls by 1, duration 1. Now that's real altruism! (Especially amusing when casting bad medicine on an opponent gives you good karma).

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