Discussion in 'Card Hunter General Chat' started by Stexe, Oct 22, 2015.
Uh, what? It isn't similar at all. What we both did was violate the rules technically. It says, "Submitted items should not be discussed anywhere until after submissions are closed." Which would include in private. Thus doing something illegal but in private.
I'm just bringing something that was already done (I've seen people talk about item submissions MANY times in the client) out into the public. And I don't see how "just because it is a competition you can't talk about it or help others." There are "friendly competitions" where people engage in strategy talk with the goal of improving everyone. There is no reason it can't be viewed as that. If someone was honestly entering AA just for the purpose of getting a copy of their item and an Epic chest, and not to introduce cool new things into the game, then I'd not only be very surprised, but I'd feel that the entire contest missed its mark. Shouldn't community contests be about bringing the community together instead of driving them apart?
Yes, and it was Flax who was protesting something by hurting others. This is optional and does not hurt anyone.
Hey, no need to protest Stexe's strongarming here. It's hilarious, of course, but I've already stated, nonsarcastically in case that wasn't clear, that I'm totally fine with this change of course. =)
The change includes no rewards for winning submissions, right?
Well, besides the item getting into the game, yes.
Yeah, it is fine when Flax strong-arms the community and his guild into reporting people for playing the game (http://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/community-balancing-act.6032/), but not when someone just openly talks on the forums. Clearly, this is unhinged when actually violating the rules (calling out players for doing nothing wrong) is perfectly fine. Sure, turn me into some bad guy by removing the winning item given and Epic Chest rewards when it should have no bearing at all whether people discuss submissions or not. Can you honestly tell me how if someone wants to give feedback on a potential item submission, thus possibly increasing the chance for the item to win, it hurts anyone? Especially when people were already doing it in-game and in-private?
I think you said it best here:
I think the problem with this is that you're using too many drawbacks to make it tokenless. Trip can be a killer, but a single super bad card I don't think offsets the fact everything else on it is amazing for a tokenless.
It's the internet, so we can't put you two in time-out. Pity, that.
Fine I will post the alternative version. Let me ask you this, would you play this over Strongarm?
Not even a "As submitted by NAME", "As Proposed by NAME", something similar?
I don't see the issue with keeping that.
Well, you're free to ignore this thread and all of our posts. I would just hope an employee of the game would hold themselves to a higher standard than petty squabbles like this. Isn't the point to promote and strength the Card Hunter community first and foremost?
Probably not, but Strongarm is a Legendary and is one of the best items in the game -- why compare it to the best of the best? If you compare it to something like Nifty Halberd I'd choose your item over that.
Posting this thread was a direct affront to his authority as a dev. He was bound to respond in some fashion.
At this point the contest is becoming polarizing and divisive, and generally detrimental to the community. A lot of contests turn out that way.
If Jon or Farbs was running this contest by the same rules, would there be as much flack and dissent? I really doubt it.
I believe the problem is that many of us think of Flax as "one of the guys" instead of "one of the devs". He is by far the most accessible of the devs, and the only one really active in the community. Most devs maintain a degree of separation from the general player base, and well they should. It's sound policy, and helps maintain the aura of authority. Familiarity really can breed contempt, and it's making Flaxative's job much more difficult than it should be. Trying to be both "a boss" and "one of the guys" is usually a horrendously bad idea. Pick one and stick with it.
I know you think you know how this contest should be run. So does Flax. Anyone else would probably run it differently than either of you, but that's not the point. The point is that Flax is in charge of this. No one in charge of anything should tolerate having their authority undermined. I'm disappointed that he allowed his contest to be compromised and changed, but he's new at this.
I'd have handled this "petty squabble" somewhat differently:
1. I'd have deleted this thread and given you a strong warning against doing anything else of this kind.
2. If you persisted, I'd have given you a temporary ban from both the forums and the game, and a warning not to try to circumvent it.
3. If you circumvented it, the temporary bans would be made permanent.
Never squabble with people when you can cut them off at the knees.
In truth, I never enjoyed being a stone bastard, but I was quite good at it. I think it's something Flax still needs to learn.
In the meantime, appreciate him while he's still a nice guy.
While I dislike the premise of the Flax thread linked (granted, I wasn't playing at the time, so my opinion doesn't matter much), bringing up a thread from a year and a half ago does absolutely nothing for your argument, especially as what you're doing something somewhat akin at this time (which you evidently disagreed with), forcing someone else to a decision.
Edit: Sorry, I see that what Vholes quoted was from there, so it wasn't unreasonable to bring it up.
The first thing you should do if you disagree with something is discuss it. You could easily have made your arguments clearer in the other thread if you wished. Personally, I think Flax is a pretty reasonable character and would hear you out. Now, admittedly, it may have got a bit heated over there, and perhaps you thought it had been discussed enough and this was your only option. In which case, fair enough (sort of, it's still very passive-aggressive no matter how you spin it). Myself, I think there was room for more debate.
As regards community discussion of entries, some counter-arguments:
It linearises entries, people will be discussing possible items, then some comes along, reads it, and thinks, oh, such and such is a good idea, instead of thinking up their own item with little influence from others. Furthermore, I suspect a lot of possible entries from just a few people.
Flaxative, if reading it, could be influenced by the discussion. I think it is unreasonable to expect him not to read a thread on these forums.
There'll be more emphasis on getting items into the game to fill slots in current builds, which I don't think is the premise of this competition.
Personally, I prefer coming up with stuff on my own, but I will just avoid this thread before making my entry.
Overall, I don't think it's a bad thing, I just think this was pig-headed way of achieving it.
Funny, @Sir Veza .....I was seriously about to say this, until I noticed you beat me to it. This is the exact reason I don't cause trouble.
Yes, he could respond by explaining his point of view and changing the rules. The contest only really become polarizing and divisive after he violated his own rules.
No, I'd post the same thing if Jon or Farbs or anyone else did it. And just because Flax talks more with the community doesn't change it in my eyes. I've called out things like this before in many other instances (both in this game and in others like League of Legends).
The point of the contest is for the community. If the community has a problem with the way it is run, why not change it?
The thing is this: Flax has done similar things like this in the past. If he could do it and get away with it, then why can't others? It is a double standard to say it is okay when he did it but not okay when others do it. Especially when one (what Flax did) hurt individuals while another (what I'm doing) hurts no one.
I do agree I'm doing something similar. Except I justify my decision because it doesn't hurt anyone (as opposed to directly calling someone out and reporting them) and it was something people were already doing (many people were discussing item submissions either in private or in-game). I honestly didn't think Flax would have such a huge issue with this post as it is not hurting anyone and is breaking a silly rule that people have been breaking since AA#1. It definitely is a passive-aggressive. But when unjust rules happen people should be called out on them.
Your counter arguments are a bit off. People can already see submissions which means they could look at an idea in the submission thread and copy it. Yes, their submission would come after (as opposed to the theoretical instance when someone copies a discussion item and posts it). However, you have time stamps in the discussion thread to compare with the official submission and common sense to see who came up with an idea first. Even then, if the idea goes in the game is someone honestly going to complain about missing a single Epic chest which is effectively 50 g and a win or two in a league? If so I'd be willing to donate my Epic chests I win from leagues to those who want them.
Flaxative could be influenced by the discussion, but it would be his choice to read this thread. I don't think it is unreasonable for him to not read something. There are other forum moderators who could read it if he feels that any discussion about item submissions might sway his judgement.
There might be more emphasis on getting items into the game to fill missing things, but that's pretty speculative.
It might be a pig-headed way of achieving it, but no more so (and definitely less so) than what Flax has done in the past.
Do two wrongs ever make things right?
Judging another on their past is not necessarily a good thing when you fail to bring up any good this man has done.
@Flaxative I'm sure you may have made some mistakes, but I imagine anyone would. You've also done a lot of good, too, and should be recognized for it.
I'm locking this thread and ending this discussion. Disingenuous claims in this thread are hurting the level of discussion and undermining the spirit and nature of Aloyzo's Arsenal. I'm surprised it has come to this because I warned him in private about his behavior. Suffice to say, there are a number of lies and false analogies in this thread and I think they are doing nothing for the game or the community. I won't respond point-by-point, but if you're worried that I have "violated rules" or "gotten away with" similar to what was attempted here, you can talk to me about it in private. Use the AA discussion thread to discuss AA. The forums are not a place for users to act this way.
Separate names with a comma.