Aloyzo's Arsenal #15: You make the card! Part 4: Card Effect!

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Flaxative, Oct 21, 2016.


Aloyzo's making a new card. What's the card?

Poll closed Nov 4, 2016.
  1. Clear Mind

    5 vote(s)
  2. Disengage, Soldiers!

    2 vote(s)
  3. Ready to Strike

    30 vote(s)
  4. Scout's Vigil

    5 vote(s)
  5. Terrifying Visage

    30 vote(s)
  6. Trailblazer

    3 vote(s)
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  1. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge


    Nope, that was actually the very first concept I derived from the card when I was analyzing it. Since I apparently didn't clarify it clearly enough in my posts (I did reference it in the spoiler here, and attempted to explain the mechanical elements of such here ["another way of reading the card"]), let me try again:
    The lack of self-targeting is only a benefit if the secondary effect is potent. Making an effect that's heavily reliant on [unfavorable!] positioning circumstances and weak compared to similar blocks to begin with the primary element of the card already means the card is at a disadvantage. It's trying to rely on the card draw element to firm the card up to a more balanced state, but that card draw effect is too weak to carry the card as well, and doesn't synergize well enough with the first component to make any dents in the unfavorable gameplay demands of the card.

    To reiterate the second link above, it's essentially a parry card [keeping in mind that parry is bronze] that splits the block component to affect only allies [making it about on par with Parry's self-target] and that instead of guaranteed card-draw, has a 1 in 3 chance of card draw [but a keep mechanic] that is at best comparable to parry's card draw [keeping in mind you'd need to stand still for on average 3 hits, while not in a position to defend allies, retaining the card in a slot if necessary the whole time, all while not getting hit by a block removal card, to break even with Parry].
    You're taking what's effectively an unusual, versatile bronze card and trying to make it out to be silver quality. The versatility of the two effects, I feel, is undermined by the positioning demands and loss-of-use of half the card if your allies die before you draw it.
    Meaning I find it lacking even as a bronze card!

    The concept and interplay are nice enough, but the card simply isn't silver quality. I attempted to note several methods by which I felt it could achieve silver quality, or simply firm itself up for Bronze quality.

    As you say- and as I've attempted to- the reliability is a positive factor.. or will be, when what it's making reliable is a more desirable function.
    The effects of the card rely on multiplicative benefit, but right now the benefits that are trying to be boosted against one another simply aren't potent enough to multiply well.

    I approve, due to reasons.
    But that aside, I don't think it's about power, but about favoring different playstyles- Trailblazer supports a versatile, maneuverability path for warrior, RtS an unusual control synergy and alternate tanking element.
    Either one would add depth to warriors, though RtS would have much more niche slotting purposes than Trailblazer, which is still useful without building to specific concepts.
    That all aside, Clear Mind adds a completely different depth to warriors, and as [what I feel to be] the most balanced card of the lot, I certainly can't argue votes for it.
    Add in that it firms up Arro builds [and thus supports its own specific playstyle], it does as much for warriors as the other two in terms of build development (niche as its focus may be).

    I like how Trailblazer adds a lot of versatility to warriors, but I'm not going to argue with the benefits of Clear Mind- it's a bit more vanilla a card, but a boring, very reliable card isn't bad.
    I've been pushing for distinct cards this whole time [hence my preference for Gold over Silver], but if I was going just for balancing out the value of helmets on the whole, I'd probably favor Clear Mind as well.

    Slides away, I think you mean. ~.^
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
    ParodyKnaveBob likes this.
  2. Although I disagree with several of your sub-points, there is the strength of truth to this statement. It's not that Scout's vigil is unreliable or unversatile, it's that it's just not good enough to be silver. Luckily for us, the Devs have stated that they are going to re-balance the chosen card if necessary, and I think you have made a strong case that it is necessary here.
  3. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    I would just like to point out that parry being the comparison only works on melee and would be slotted more frequently if it could, there is a reason why blocking mace is played though it has unblock.
  4. The block feature on Scout's Vigil also only works on melee.
  5. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    True, I forgot.
  6. @Flaxative Just another poke for my question about hard to block and Scout's Vigil. It's probably buried in the comments by now. :)
  7. Flaxative

    Flaxative Party Leader

    I don't see why it would apply to the first effect, but I haven't tested it specifically.
  8. I don't see why Chain Harness would buff the discard effect of Mystical Drakehide, but it does. Mystical drakehide is an armor/boost card, and its secondary roll is affected by the harness. Scout's Vigil is a boost/block card, and its primary roll might be affected by hard to block. Could you test it please?

    Edit: Flaxative explained his reasoning to me in-game. It goes like this. The harnesses say "when you roll a die for armor", while hard to block when you hover over it says "subtract ___ when rolling to block this card". It's very specific about the effect, not the card.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  9. Actually, after thinking about it, I'm not sure how Spark Generator would interact with Scout's Vigil. Spark Generator is noticeably more vague than the hard to block effect, as it only says
  10. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    It wouldn't interact -- not until Melee Arcane gets printed.
    seth arue likes this.
  11. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    I actually rather like the general concept of the card, and I think it could be quite workable with a bit of tweaking. I'm not at all arguing against the card itself [In fact, I quite appreciate the whole Ranger vibe that Scout's Vigil and Trailblazer push], just explaining why I felt it to have the least balance-to-cost of all the cards.
    As far as unreliable or unversatile, that's more a symptom of specific nuances in the design combined with the overvalued abilities it has, rather than a flaw in the concept itself. As I noted, with fairly minor rebalancing, it should be quite functional. The difference between bronze and silver quality isn't that phenomenal that a few minor differences can't easily push a card from one quality tier to the next- in fact, simply changing 'Block Melee' to 'Block Any' between Parry and Shield Block changes the card quality a whopping two quality tiers.

    The problem isn't one of utility or general design, just with the polishing. :)

    Shocking Grasp, here we come!

    ParodyKnaveBob likes this.
  12. The block effect wouldn't, true. But the draw effect would, Scout's vigil is still a block card, and Spark Generator is noticeably vague about what rolls it subtracts from on block cards. In any case, I suppose it doesn't matter too much, now that it looks like scout's vigil is out of the running.
  13. seth arue

    seth arue Thaumaturge

    That'd be Electric. Maybe we would need a Force Fist!
  14. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    Wasn't saying it wasn't electric- just saying, if we get Rasengan- er, I mean, Melee Arcane, then no reason we can't get Melee Electric as well! I mean, who doesn't want Chidori- er, I mean, "Shocking Grasp"- in game?
    Melee Acid is also an acceptably appealing option. :)

    And yes, Rasengan should properly be Melee Wind, but currently wind spells in CH fall under Arcane. :X
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  15. I'm all about melee sonic. Trying to think of a reason a sonic attack could possibly be melee. Even range 1 sonic effects (like Scream) don't seem like the sort of thing you could parry. Of course, one must remember that it is possible to Disorientating Block a pulse of harmful radiation.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
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  16. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    Non-auditory-projection-based vibration effects are also sonic typed, and can theoretically be parried [at least according to other settings with sonic damage types]. :)


    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
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  17. karadoc

    karadoc Hydra

    Ready to Strike would be pretty powerful on a wizard; but difficult to get good value from on a warrior...
    Meanwhile, Terrifying Visage would be terrifyingly powerful on a warrior; but difficult to get good value from on a wizard.

    I haven't voted yet. I just thought that was an interesting observation that I'd like to share. (And given that we've chosen a helmet card, wizard may or may not have access to this card in the future - but warriors will certainly have it.)

    I'm tempted to vote for Visage, since I know I'd try to use it. But on the other hand I'm not sure if I actually want a card like that in the game. As someone said earlier, it may disrupt class balance a bit. And the existence of the card would be an indirect nerf to the much maligned elf wizards. :(
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  18. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    I saw a few things I wanted to comment on. (I saw plenty I could comment on, but time! O, time.)

    Memory Loss is entirely reliable since it affects the oldest card, no roll involved (not counting getting blocked of course). Ah, memories of @CT5 discussing with his Twitch audience mid-battle whether to Memory Loss my elves due to discarding random vs. oldest. $E^ b

    I haven't seen anyone mention Clear Mind bypassing being Stunned, thus being better than a mere self-Purge -- and with Zombies starting to run amok in MP, this might be more important nowadays. $;^ b But yeah, I agree otherwise. A little weird flavor-wise, especially the terrain, but it's workable, cute, and definitely helpful toward concentrating a deck toward anti-attachment.

    I actually disagreed with a lot of @DunDunDun's opinions on these cards, but I'd say he nailed this one. In trouble? Emergency Slide Back 2. Wanna Block check? Projectile Sonic all your enemies. Decked out for terrain control? Control a little more.

    1. A deck could have three at most, assuming any Helmet would be that focused, and don't forget the probably-(majortoken) cost, although Silver-minus (B-) would focus at (minortoken). Only intense draws would make it easier to access that I can tell.
    2. NOTE FOR EVERYONE: Every card Aloyzo tinkered with is RARE. Whatever card we get will show up on Rare, Epic, and/or Legendary items. They won't be that common to slot. (Although I suddenly wonder what Mauve Manticore will reward. Ha ha ha ha ha.)

    And finally, despite the fact that I've never been an excellent player and therefore usually keep my few tricks up my sleeve, I still want to answer everyone concerned about complicated positioning: about a year ago, I started slamming through the ranks with a party who included an elf wizard who Force Coned multiple chars a lot; you get used to the positioning of angled Slide Back when you use it. $;^ D Lol. (Don't forget that Blocking Terrain exists. D,S! can be an extremely aggressive card.)

    That said, I can't help but agree with Maniafig that this might be better as primarily a Human Skill card (with perhaps a Helmet or two featuring it like Flak said how Jump, Soldier! could be considered).

    .........aaaaaaand it's named Intimidating Terrifying Visage! $;^ D lol
    Yes, a single and unpreventable Move-cancelling card is powerful and nice -- and can just as well be removed by a Parry-heavy enemy's Lunging Hack, heh.

    The souped-up Ooze Blast can still be used as a last-ditch-effort 1. block check, 2. slam-two-chars-together card, or 3. get-away-from-me attempt. I find it an intriguing Utility for sure. $:^ ]

    It has nice repeat-offense power of chasing (or repeat-defense power of escape), plus one-time-defense power of terrain-attachment-clearing. What gets me is that the cleansing has Range 6 and is Projectile Sonic. $:^ . I just .. kinda .. fail to see the same brilliance of theme and flavor the other cards carry.

    I might see it as more of a Helmet card (instead of something more magical, elven, or bootish?) if the cleansing part had to have at least one terrain detachment within Range 1 of the char playing it. Even then, Projectile Sonic.. ~tosses hands up~ $:^ J

    Flavor's great, but that 1/3 draw chance at silver... $:^ \ In fact, no matter how I read it, I can't see what Maniafig meant unless there's a typo or misunderstanding somewhere in there. Definite upgrade connected in the same breath with less of a chance to draw a card? Really, I keep wanting to see the card as a "don't hit me" sort of warder-offer, but at 1/3 chance, an enemy's more likely than not gonna try. Duck, Block, and Quick Reactions are all deterrents at 1/2, but 1/3? Erg.

    Since it was discussed for contrast, I'll say I used Reflexive Teleport earlier this year to great effect (in large part because of all the complaints against its usefulness ha ha), but the whole effect was that I made it more reliable than the various comparative limitations of the proposed Helmet card.

    (Head's up (pardon the pun), but Quick Reactions is not gold. It's silver. Unless something got unbalanced recently with the wiki not keeping up?)

    Awareness. The helmet-wearer is Ready to Strike. So ready, that you even come up to the guy or gal, and slash! you get a face full of damage by sheer reflex.

    Yeah! $:^ D

    $E^ D

    I keep coming back to the same (but perhaps I'm biased, ha ha ha ha).

    I expect it's no secret I love elf wizards. Visage isn't nice to them, that's for sure. Hm.

    Meanwhile, if Ready to Strike gets popular, there'd probably be an increase in Bash and Stab warriors (both the warriors who are Ready to Strike and the warriors defending against them).

    Although I'm leaning toward Visage, I'll wait a little longer. (Like @karadoc said while I was writing all this: Poor elf wizards. Lol.) (I know, control and pushes would help the EWiz vs. Visage -- but that still has to bypass what's supposed to be the EWiz's greatest trait: high self-mobility as an elf. Nevertheless, the Terrifying is not Keep, and an EWiz often has other means of keeping distance anyway. Hm.) ~yep, waiting a little longer before voting~ $E^ J
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
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  19. DunDunDun

    DunDunDun Thaumaturge

    Oops. Well, the only thing that changes in my deliberations is that QR didn't actually need to be boosted if SV got implemented. :p
    Don't think it really affects the rest of the calculations between the two, since those were based more in slotability, but if it does make a difference in that regard, it'd only be to further emphasize how wanting SV is. :X

    If that's your unique flavor for it, by all means, continue.
    But otherwise, just going to point out some alternatives for your consideration:
    [..] Removing immediate information (a few words, a sentence, etc) between two elements
    [...] Removing a sizable amount of information, typically indicating you're jumping from one major point, topic, or paragraph to another

    (Head's up (pardon the pun), but Quick Reactions is not gold. [..] Unless something got unbalanced recently with the wiki not keeping up?) [...] Although I'm leaning toward Visage, I'll wait a little longer.

    I'm not sure I'd emphasize either one's potential potency quite that much, but the general sentiment matches my own thoughts pretty well.
    I listed RtS as the second best balanced-to-cost after Clear Mind, given that it has great situational utility [bottlenecking with heal/defender's block support, control wizard assistance, or bash synergy] but isn't especially strong inherently.
    Similarly, it's quite good for swarm PvE maps, but pretty weak in maps with a few strong enemies. Given that it's not that strong inherently and not that versatile, it doesn't really help Helmet appeal on the whole, but it's a card that fills out a nice little niche in Helmets and adds that much more depth to them.
    If a wizard builds for mobility, RtS could indeed be rather potent- the wizard'd dominate ranged, and be able to utilize movement cards in a manner similar to attack cards, by relying on RtS to synergize with them to deal damage as they evade melee encounters. For a mage, I'd imagine it'd be a gold card, rather than silver, even if converted to a class-appropriate damage type.

    Terrifying Visage's ability to triple stack non-melee control cards on a warrior dilutes control wizards while offering tanks a potent counter. Add in that it's not enemy-only for some reason (even though you'd think it would be, given the concept), and it has the extra utility of being able to maneuver enemies- well, it may not have cantrip, but it's a card that's nearly comparable to Jump, Soldier! at gold, even before you add in the extra (and potentially very powerful) utility of allowing for enemy-move-cancellation. So, you've got a fairly potent card at silver, even before you account for the fact that warriors aren't getting a cost penalty for utilizing skills outside of their normal purview.

    Honestly, I'd be more favorable to an Emerald quality rating for it, given its utility and nature of effect. That'd still allow 2x at yellow pip, with a handicap, after all, and also make it cost at least one blue pip to slot at all.
    (Alternatively, simply changing the slide back to 1 would alleviate a great deal of my concerns, while making the card feel more like a more conceptually appropriate 'flinch back from the grotesqueness' than the current 'I pushed you with my face')
    It's not a bad concept, but when it comes to "Is this something I want to see warriors have easy access to and encounter often", it just feels quite unfavorable.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
  20. timeracers

    timeracers Guild Leader

    I was having a difficult time figuring out why you included that last part. After a while I solved it, you were trying to use it as an example. I would do something like this instead:
    Firstly I don't know why you say "Terrifying Visage's ability to triple stack non-melee control cards", since Terrifying Visage only has 2 control parts in it, and 1 of them can be considered melee (in regards to range).
    I agree that it not being enemy-only is weird.
    Extra? Isn't that one of the two main utilities?
    Cantrip is a potent keyword, it is the only difference from Run and Quick Run along with a 6 rating increase! Have you seen Force Cannon? It's a bronze (C, 3) rated card.
    So both of the main utilities are extra?
    I agree that one of it's utilities is more of a wizard's thing, but neither power is worth that amount.
    False you can slot without spending a token on a 3 card item if it was an emerald (AA, 12) card. If you have 2 tar (E, -3) cards with it, the item would be level 6.
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