All-out attack problems.

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by Kaishin, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. Kaishin

    Kaishin Kobold

    All-out attack presents an interesting strategy, being able to double the damage of most attacks. Unfortunately, that also makes it difficult to balance, and it does need changes, in my opinion.

    The big one is multiple all-out attacks. The way the game is programmed, it makes logical sense that every all-out attack activates as soon as possible, so if an attacker has multiple, multiple are used. But this presents a huge balance issue as it causes characters to be one-shot.

    Now, some of you are probably wondering: "what's wrong with having a one-shot?"

    Everyone that has played PvP knows consciously or unconsciously that all characters are supposed to take multiple attacks to kill. This is important because in between each attack a player makes, the opponent gets an action to respond. This is an absolutely crucial element to the game.

    You are only supposed to lose when the opponent corners you, outwits you, removes all of your options, etc. It's a process that takes a bit of time and happens over many turns.

    Simply put, whittling down your opponent is the core of the PvP gameplay. I don't know the design goals of the dev team, but for the players, this should be very clear.

    Being able to kill the opponent in a single hit directly contradicts the spirit of the game, as the opponent has no chance to respond. They're basically killed before they've played the game. The game is simply not designed for spike rushes.

    I think the following one or more of the following nerfs should be applied to AOA.
    1. First and foremost, only one AOA should be able to be used per attack.
    2. AOA could auto-reveal. This allows players to play around it, since it has such a huge advantage.
    3. AOA could negate all positive and negative damage modifiers on the attacker and the defender. No more frenzy boosted AOA, but it would also bypass armor and would ignore penalties such as wimpy.
    4. AOA could only work if the target has no attack cards in their hand.
    5. Perhaps a reduced multiplier? Maybe a static one.

    Honestly, what does AOA add to the game? Not much, in my opinion. All it 'adds' is an extremely annoying mechanic that contradicts the spirit of the game.
    mikey76500 likes this.
  2. Hey,

    I just saw this post and wanted to provide some personal thoughts on this. I can see why such one-shots can be quite annoying if you are the owner of the one-shotted character, but this game is all about deck-building at first. If you got one-shotted then you probably had too few blocks. Because even if your opponent can accomplish a single attack with 1000 points of damage, a single block can be all you need to nullify the whole attack. In addition PvP has some other aspects how you can make up for a one-shotted character as one killed character doesn't defeat you completely (and if it does it's again bad deck-building).

    And your argument that every character is supposed to take several hits is nuts. What about a elf wizard and Pulverizing Hack? Just one AOA or any other Frenzy can completely wipe out this character.

    Given that you can at most put 6 AOAs on a human warrior (just try to max out blocks on human/dwarf warriors/priests to see the numbers) and you can only keep two cards in hand (normally) makes it almost impossible to have more than three AOAs in hand at the same time. And if you try to max out your AOAs you are pretty much defense-less, hence the opponent can just attack himself/herself and kill before the AOAs can activate.

    About your ideas:
    1. There are other cards where is would be awesome to control which buffs and debuffs are applied but that's not how this game works. If you have several Frenzy Auras in hand, the attack gets Penetrating more than once but the game doesn't mind (I know, bad example as Frenzy Aura also buffs your attack in terms of damage points but I just couldn't think of another card).
    2. What if the owner of the AOAs gets first in this round? What would be the advantage for the opponent knowing that he/she will be one-shotted by the next attack if this attack may come immediately.
    3. All AOAs should be penetrating ("but it would also bypass armor")? At least that's what I get from your statement. But I guess it would be better if AOA-boosted attacks couldn't be unblockable or penetrating anymore. This would let the opponent at least some ways to survive. And as I said one dead character doesn't mean a defeated player, so perhaps you can trade one character for a better positioning?
    4. Sorry, but that's completely silly. Why would you want that? And what if you haven't drawn a single attack card at the start of some round? Then you could be AOAed the whole round. And if you reserve some Little Zap you couldn't be AOAed? That's no better than it is today.
    5. Sure, why not. There were other nerfs before although no card has changed in the last years.

    And I don't want to comment some of your other statements about "The game is" or "Every player knows" as they are questionable at least if not complete nonsense. Just that: if you got one-shotted you CAN RESPOND just that you can't use the dead character, and collecting AOAs for such a scenario TAKES quite some TIME. So where's the problem? All your criteria are met. Just get suspicious if a warrior doesn't attack for three rounds or so.

    Finally let me say the following: I'm always happy to see this forum alive but the chances of any more updates to the game are quite small IMHO. So, better learn to live with how the game is ;) .
    Sir Veza and ParodyKnaveBob like this.
  3. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    I speak as an elf wizard player who has received a LOT of one-shots, with or without All Out Attack.

    To set up for an AOA one-shot takes patience, planning, outwitting, etc. Usually, it requires testing your options, then removing them all at once.

    See, here's the thing. With experience, you learn the patterns. Some people play AOA really sneakily, and good for them! Buuut, often, AOA has tells, and a player just can't help telegraphing it from a mile away. Also, a character almost always empties one's hand to be able to pull it off, meaning an opponent is often in better position to answer it via other characters.

    OTK combo. Now, it's generally only good for one character - or if done well, two - which still leaves the rest of the party. It was hilariously ironic when people started complaining about elf wizards obtaining a OTK combo of their own, as if they hadn't been enduring it for years already, (and speaking as if the devs made an oversight, as opposed to the truth of designing it on purpose,) but I'm just saying, it's nice when a tactical game allows you to set up this "Johnny" kind of maneuver, then pull it off. (Timmy/Tammy, Johnny/Jenny, and Spike(/Star) are MTG marketing terms for player types.) Card Hunter has almost no one-shot opportunities; AOA, Talented Healer, and Ancient Grudge are pretty much it (aside from Pulverizing + a small buff for Hack or a big buff for Bludgeon vs. an elf wizard), thus at least you know what to look for, but also we Johnnys/Jennys have very little theorycrafting we can actually accomplish.

    I once played three human wizards and faced an elf warrior and two priests. They just kept passing every round, doing nothing. I didn't know what to do. I hung back instead of engaging, attempting to take VSs, etc. My mistake. Several rounds in, suddenly, the priests started using draw, draw, and more draw. Demonic Power. Delegate. You name it. Drew about a third of the entire deck, oh wow. And la pièce de résistance, Surestrike Blessing. Now, this was Celestial Dojo, and we were still all the way across from each other, thus when the warrior Dashed in, then Run'd in, and was halfway across the map, I figured juuust to be safe, I'd better start moving my wizards away from each other somewhat. Nope! Quick Run! Quick Run! Quick Step! Obliterating Chop! AOA! AOA! 80 total damage, 40 to 2 wizards, leaving me one wizard, and still holding some cards in hand. I congratulated on pulling off that monstrosity and (in a very rare moment for me) actually conceded. Lol. Man, that was amazing - and utterly debilitating. But! It took multiple rounds of my inaction to be able to build up for it and pull it off.

    If anything, I'm just annoyed that it's in the Lycanthropic card pool. Makes it way too easy to get now.

    I hope this helps shed light on a different perspective - and I don't even really play AOA (except from Werewolf cards).

    EDIT P.S. Some year or two ago, a couple of us were talking and figured out how to one-turn-kill, total-party-kill - one-shot the entire enemy team!! It'd be the most wonderful thing ever to pull off, but trust me, it's not gonna happen with any consistency, like, ever. It's way too fragile and dependent on perfect draws. But still. $:^ ] All it needs is a human wizard and probably two human priests (to help get the draws)... So yeah, be glad all the viable one-shots are only one (or sometimes two) characters at a time. $;^ b
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  4. Sir Veza

    Sir Veza Farming Deity

    IMO, the spirit of the game was originally random chance. Positioning was (and still is) key, but Firestorm and both Whirlwinds were global in both range and effect. Encumber to zero movement was a thing, and could render opponents helpless. Obliterating Bludgeon would one-shot an elf wiz without need of a buff.
    Due to PvP complaints, this has been seriously toned down over the years.
    The introduction of Werewolf form has made AOA more common, and if it shows up in multiples it can be quite deadly. However, there is no guarantee it will show up at all. It's a matter of random chance.
    I used to run the pre-nerf Sprint Team, and if it showed up at the right time I could often wreck an opponent in one round. In most games, it never showed up. Kind of like Delegate, which I've also read complaints about. If a power combo shows up at an opportune moment, I believe it should have the ability to cause massive damage. Regardless of which end of it I'm on, it's a thing of beauty. Without it, I might as well go back to chess.
    Just my opinion, of course.
    Good Hunting!
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
    tolkien, Kornl and ParodyKnaveBob like this.
  5. Robauke

    Robauke Guild Leader

    Im no fan of aoa in the werewolf card set, that (and it's mobility) plays a crucial part in that forms inbalance. Aside from that, Aoa is high up on the list as far as greater heal spam counters go, without the threat of outrageous damage or an insta kill, the warrior puppets in range of their priest would prbly rely on that healing alone and be even more aggro. As it was said here, as experienced player you can sense the presence of all out attack like one jedi /Highlander can sense another (or you just read the item names on the visible cards). It impact starts not when used, but when it is assumed present, the assumption alone forces your opponent to abandon too reckless strategies. One could say it slows the match down and allows actual witty play to unfold, compared to a headless aggro game based on dwarf hp and Snitricks last stand alone.
  6. kontodogrania1

    kontodogrania1 Goblin Champion

    All out attack should discard all cards on champion who plays it
  7. ParodyKnaveBob

    ParodyKnaveBob Thaumaturge

    Just remember, AOA is a gold-quality card. You pay tokens for that kind of thing. If you want it nerfed in some way, you'd better look for a way to ramp up its power somewhere else because if it drops to silver or something, that's a lot of item rebalancing that's literally not gonna happen, meaning no straight nerf to AOA's gonna happen, either.
    Sir Veza likes this.
  8. Pyrious

    Pyrious Hydra

    Agree that AoA shouldn't be part of wolf form. Agree that AoA shouldn't be nerfed. The counterplay to AoA is parry or other blocks. I do think that Final Sword is too good of an item to also have AoA though, especially when you compare it to the other (majortoken)(majortoken) weapons with AoA, which are actually challenging to build around.

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