What I don't want to see happen on the forums...

I have been noticing a huge amount of complaints about cards and OP things on the forums, and this is going to lead to everything getting nerfed to the point of not being usable. Currently there are a lot of complaints about WW/WWE and Talented Healer, but I am sorry that I don't think that they are OP. If you can't play around them with your current strategy then change your tactics. The more people complain about cards the weaker the game becomes and the less fun it is.

I am sorry if this might come across as rude, but if you can't play well enough to beat high level strategies then don't complain about those strategies. If you are worried that one tactic is "cheesy" or "unfair" then build around it. This is common sense when playing any PvP game based on builds.

 

To some extent I agree with you, the forums would be a much less fun place if they only consisted of people complaining about cards.

However, this is a beta test. At this stage I would think Blue Manchu probably appreciates all the player feedback they get. Most of the threads have also had at least a little thought put into them, usually explaining why they think there is a problem and giving suggestions about what they think would fix it, rather than simply being "OMG, Talented Healer/WW/WWE is OP. Nerf please". Ultimately it comes down to the developers to decide whether or not a card needs changing. As long as they are basing their opinion on data collected, possibly (but not necessarily) in addition to community feedback, there hopefully won't be any problems.

It looks like the devs do read the threads, I notice Jon just posted in one of the Talented Healer ones, so posting your own opinion (if you haven't already) couldn't hurt.

 

Oh, I understand that some cards are problems, and I understand that this is beta. But it seems like a lot of the discussion are more along the lines of "I don't like this card so it must be OP." I am not saying feedback is bad, I think it is good and I read most of it.

 

I agree I see a lot of this. Most any good card that is spammed in deck will be a pain in the ass to counter specifically.

In any competitive environment people will always find the most mathematically efficient way to win and use it. I don't use that that lunge card (7 damage step 2 can't think of namd, in bed on my phone). However I have been on the receiving end of it a lot. However I have still managed to find ways around it without building a deck specifically to stop it. It still got nerfed. So now the frenzy begins anew to find the next best melee card and stick as my of them in your deck as you can...

 

You sound like one of the guys who was defending why Vicious Thrust didn't need a nerf.

http://forums.cardhunter.com/threads/why-is-vicious-thrust-only-silver.3043/

Then the dev comes along and shuts everyone down. If everyone took your suggestion and stopped working to improve the game, Card Hunter would die a miserable death because no one would play it due to broken and lame cards.

WW/WWE and Talented Healer are all OP to hell and if they don't get nerfed people will stop playing this game. So far the devs have been very good and I predict these cards will be nerfed in the future. Balance is too important to pass up.

 

I am not in anyway trying to stop people from giving their opinion or from claiming that some cards/strategies are too strong. Obviously you didn't read my second post in this thread, or you would already know that my issue is that people are making the argument that "I don't like/know how to play against/have card X, so it is OP." Talented Healer is strong but it is one of the only things that makes bringing a healing priest into a PvP match viable. I could agree that Focused Healer is too powerful, and possibly limiting the amount of Talented Healer available to a priest is a good idea. Same goes for Whirlwind and Whirlwind Enemies. Rod of Winds is possibly too strong, but I don't think that a COMPLETELY RANDOM placement of characters is OP.

I don't want to derail the conversation though. My point is not that discussions should not be had, my point is that people should be able to show how one card/combination of cards breaks the game before calling it OP. What happens when you start nerfing stuff that people don't like is that other cards become better indirectly, then the nerf stick comes down on that card, and the cycle continues.

For the record, I have been fine with all of the nerfs that have happened so far.

 

If you're fine with all the nerfs, then what's your complaint? What you're worried about here seems to be directed more at the devs than at the people giving feedback. You seem to be worried that if enough people QQ the devs are going to just cave and nerf everything, but I haven't seen any evidence of that happening so far - all the changes so far have really improved things.

This is a closed beta, so we're supposed to be giving feedback of what we think about various aspects of the game, including balance.

So...what? If something's broken we should just build around it? What about infinite draw builds, should we just "build around" those too? The reality is that sometimes nerfs are necessary in order to preserve balance and/or fun. Saying people should just build around them strikes me as incredibly dismissive of what could potentially be very serious balance problems.

And, to my knowledge, not a lot of people are saying that Talented Healer and WW/WWE are straight-up OP. The issues people have with WW/WWE are simply a question of how tolerant they are of RNG. Personally, I think the cards are really only useful as a panic button, when you're in a situation so bad that it can only possibly get better, and as such I don't really have a problem with them. In the case of Talented Healer, people are arguing that it's so good that it becomes practically mandatory to have a pure healer cleric, and that with the right deck it becomes possible to heal your characters for huge amounts every turn (almost always more than they take). This has several negative effects on the game as a whole - it makes it so that having a healing cleric (along with the items necessary to make one) is necessary to be viable in MP, and it means that the only way you can kill characters is with huge burst damage, as any attempt to slowly wear them down will just be healed through.

While it's entirely possible to have a balanced meta with no changes to this card, it really, really limits the number of viable builds if you want to play MP competitively. This is extremely damaging to CH, as deck-building is half the game. While the actual strategic play element may be "fair" with both players running a talented healer cleric, the deck-building part is broken and unfun if everyone's forced to bring one and all their DPS characters have to be extremely bursty (aiming to kill characters in one hit) to do anything.

 

This is what beta is for, right? To test stuff and change it and test it again, and for us to give honest opinions about balance among everything else. For the most part I think everybody's being honest and not strategic in calling for nerfs on the forums, and the looming beta reset gives us no reason to become attached to any especially strong items or strategies, to instead try and bring about the healthiest competitive environment for the next stages of development. Nobody wants a single strategy to dominate, we all want a variety of opponents with room for personalization and niche builds.

Multiplayer is still on a small scale compared to what may be to come - these complaints aren't going to go away if left alone and a bunch of new players join. Better to hash it out in beta where we are less attached to items and decks and changes are taking place in a petri dish rather than a live environment.

 

The first post to come to mind for WWE/WW specifically states that the card is not OP, they just really lose enjoyment in the game when it is used and causes the win (for either player) to be decided from that one play regardless of most anything else.

The only other things we could possibly talk about besides which cards are not fun or are not properly balanced would be cards not being rated properly (ongoing discussion already), new map types (ongoing), or proposing completely new cards and items (sporadically happens without prompting).


And people should absolutely NOT be trying to find a build to beat the card that annoys them before they post about it. That would be one person working alone to try and find a solution to a problem, quite likely with a limited set of tools available to them. If you come here and post about it, in a constructive manner, then other people can chime in and inform you on their own attempts to overcome the card (or their own attempts to use it even). This will find out FAR faster if there is a solution/counter, or if indeed the card is too powerful.

Now, if the page was slammed with "OMG, XXXX OP, NERF NAO!!!!1!!" threads, you would have a point.

 

But isn't that EXACTLY their opinion and claiming that some cards/strategies are too strong that you JUST stated that you are not trying to stop?

It's also the card that really drives most infinite turn decks as well. So long as you enjoy sitting and watching your opponent play their entire deck and do 3 damage to you at a time until each of your characters die without being able to play a card, then yeah Talented healer is just fine. Some cards break the game, many of the discussion about Talented healer are about HOW to change it, not IF it should be changed.

Nobody (credible) has said that whirlwind or WWE is OP, but it also breaks the game/ruins the tactical play experience.

Just on a side note in addition to 'nerf this' threads there are active threads talking about giving buffs to cards too, like low level elf and/or human skills for instance.

Then be glad you weren't here earlier in the Beta where many of the threads were exactly that. Even then though they give some indication of cards to look at. If every new player complains about a specific card, there is a reason for it and the sheer amount of data gained even from ragers saying that something is OP is helpful for the community to highlight and evaluate the cards and tactics. Often the problem isn't the specific card people are raging against, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem to be resolved.

Then have (continued) faith in the developers! They are the ones in control and aren't going to have knee jerk reactions to random people crying OP on various cards. It doesn't matter how many crys of OPness there are. As far as the community goes it becomes obvious who the real analyzers are in the community and who are the ones that look at the surface level of cards and call OP. In order for the beta to work well you actually need a bit of both. You asking the forums to not do something isn't going to change anything and comes off as poorly (at least to me) as you feel people's crys of OPness do.

 

One thing to note on that front is that there are some (at least a small number) of us that aren't building 'to win' decks but instead are testing out card abuses. My ranking will go from 1000 to 1400 or so depending on what deck I'm testing and what works.

 

WWE is OP because it is labeled as bronze. Definitely outclasses other bronze wizard cards.